Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_Chap]

Remember, as you yourself have pointed out, that Afghanistan is 99% Muslim. Hamid Karzai, the leader of Afghanistan, is a Muslim. His minister of education is a Muslim. The teachers who teach Afghan girls in Afghan schools are Muslims.

I wonder what we actually know about the private religious beliefs of people who live in a country like Afghanistan, where it would take an act of foolhardy personal bravery to say this sentence in public:

"Although my parents brought me up as a Muslim, once I had the ability to think for myself I realised that I just didn't believe in it anymore."

In fact, to go further - in which countries with a majority Muslim population would it be safe (in the sense of not involving legal penalties or a risk of suffering informal violence) to utter the above sentence?

If the number is rather small (as I suspect it may be), does that have anything to do with views generally held by Muslims as to what the doctrines of their religion are?

[_Mister Scratch]

Do you mean **Shades**, Prof. P.? Gee, you're not obsessed or anything... are you?

Substantive as ever! Focused like a laser on serious issues. LOL.

But no, don't flatter yourself.

by the way: I noticed that you've avoided the Ziggurat thread like the plague. I would imagine that you are still reeling after having callously thrown a colleague under the bus. See: this is what happens when your ferocious Mopologetic ambitions are/were allowed to run amok---you get too emotional and sloppy with your words

Funny. You fantasize that I'm obsessed with you, and then you complain that I've been ignoring you. Make up your mind.

No, not me---just the thread in general. I thought that Tom raised a very significant point, and I merely found it interesting that you didn't respond at all.

I told you that you'd get at most one opportunity per day to conduct your Scratchoscopies. You didn't ask any even minimally good questions after that, so I haven't bothered with your silly little thread any more.

And guess what? It's my night for bishop's interviews. So I won't be here for your bizarre probing tonight, either. Tough luck.

Once again (to quote you): ROTFL! Is this really the best response you've got? Oh, come on now, Professor P.! That's weak! We're still wondering why you saw fit to toss a colleague under the bus! We're still curious about the Protocol of 1995, along with a great many other things! So, keep manufacturing all the excuses you can muster. The threads aren't going to go away, after all. It's simple enough to top them ad infinitum.

[_harmony]

Prejudice against women's education is present in rural villages in Afghanistan, but not in the government at Kabul.

So if I was to believe that, I'd have to think that the 13% (sorry, bad math) of women who are literate all live in one city, Kabul? And that the 30% of girls who go to school all live in that one city? And that only rural women carry the burden of illiteracy, because their more fortunate urban sisters are all educated, thanks to the modern (as opposed to backward) male leaders in Kabul?

Did I mention that I wasn't born yesterday?

Those women aren't all in rural villages, Daniel. That's beyond the realm of possibility.

What they have in common isn't their geographic location, it's their poverty and their religion.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Prejudice against women's education is present in rural villages in Afghanistan, but not in the government at Kabul.

So if I was to believe that, I'd have to think that the 13% (sorry, bad math) of women who are literate all live in one city, Kabul? And that the 30% of girls who go to school all live in that one city? And that only rural women carry the burden of illiteracy, because their more fortunate urban sisters are all educated, thanks to the modern (as opposed to backward) male leaders in Kabul?

Those women aren't all in rural villages, Daniel. That's beyond the realm of possibility.

Prejudice against women in rural areas doesn't mean that absolutely no women receive any education at all in those areas. And the fact that the central government in Kabul believes in the education of women doesn't mean that all women in Kabul receive educations. I don't believe in such a black-and-white absurdity, and asserted no such thing. Besides which, I've been around the Third World enough to know what government schools tend to be like even in the capital city.

Incidentally, in your earlier post you said that 23% of Afghan women are literate. Please decide which it is.

What they have in common isn't their geographic location, it's their poverty and their religion

Both their poverty and their religion are factors, of course. But so is their geographical location. Rural schools are almost certainly far more poorly funded and far more sparse than are schools in the capital city, near the Ministry of Education. Urban dwellers are far less likely to be traditionally patriarchal than are those who live in remote mountain valleys. And so on and so forth. And, of course, if these Muslim women lived in Kuwait, say, or in Brunei, or under the Palestinian Authority, or in Jordan, or in Indonesia, or in Turkey, or in Qatar, or in Malaysia, or in Bahrain, or in Libya, or in Saudi Arabia, or in Iran, or in the United Arab Emirates, or even in Egypt, their chances of being literate would be several times higher than in Afghanistan. Yet all of those countries are overwhelmingly Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... eracy_rate

Did I mention that I wasn't born yesterday?

Yes, as a matter of fact. If I'm not mistaken, you've indicated that you're really, really old.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I thought that Tom raised a very significant point, and I merely found it interesting that you didn't respond at all.

I saw no question addressed to me by Tom and, so, nothing for me to respond to.

Buck up, Scratch. You'll have to find another reason for living, but you can do it. You don't need attention from me in order to survive.

[_Calculus Crusader]

DCP is defending the "cursed followers of the black Mahound" again, I see. Iran's "saving grace" is its pre-Islamic culture. (Ferdowsi is not famous for singing the praises of Mahound.) Otherwise, it would be a backwater.

[_Daniel Peterson]

DCP is defending the "cursed followers of the black Mahound" again, I see. Iran's "saving grace" is its pre-Islamic culture. (Ferdowsi is not famous for singing the praises of Mahound.) Otherwise, it would be a backwater.

Avicenna, al-Ghazali, Abu Hatim al-Razi, the cathedral-mosques and public squares of Isfahan, Nizam al-Mulk, Nasir al-Din Tusi, the miniature paintings of Herawi and Abbasi, Rumi, Sa‘di, Hafez, ‘Umar-i Khayyam, al-Biruni, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Mullah Sadra -- these and many other contributions of Islamic Persia suggest, to put it mildly, that your opinion is risible.

[_Calculus Crusader]

DCP is defending the "cursed followers of the black Mahound" again, I see. Iran's "saving grace" is its pre-Islamic culture. (Ferdowsi is not famous for singing the praises of Mahound.) Otherwise, it would be a backwater.

Avicenna, al-Ghazali, Abu Hatim al-Razi, the cathedral-mosques and public squares of Isfahan, Nizam al-Mulk, Nasir al-Din Tusi, the miniature paintings of Herawi and Abbasi, Rumi, Sa‘di, Hafez, ‘Umar-i Khayyam, al-Biruni, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Mullah Sadra -- these and many other contributions of Islamic Persia suggest, to put it mildly, that your opinion is risible.

I see Avicenna as a representative of pre-Islamic culture. He certainly did not get the knowledge he built on from the rabble who imposed Islam on Iran.

Besides which, wasn't he deemed a heretic by contemporary Muslims? (Or was that Averroes?)

[_Daniel Peterson]

I see Avicenna as a representative of pre-Islamic culture.

This reminds me of the "No True Scotsman Fallacy," named by Antony Flew:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

He certainly did not get the knowledge he built on from the rabble who imposed Islam on Iran.

He was a believing Muslim who wrote most of his books in Arabic.

Besides which, wasn't he deemed a heretic by contemporary Muslims? (Or was that Averroes?)

That was neither.

Incidentally, speaking of "Mahound," I think I'll take this opportunity to endorse a good biography of him:

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Prophet- ... 633&sr=8-2

[_Calculus Crusader]

I see Avicenna as a representative of pre-Islamic culture.

This reminds me of the "No True Scotsman Fallacy," named by Antony Flew:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Some people don't consider that a fallacy, you know.

He certainly did not get the knowledge he built on from the rabble who imposed Islam on Iran.

He was a believing Muslim who wrote most of his books in Arabic.

Then I see him as a victim of his time, which is a real shame, since he could have been another Aphrahat. (Or the Mazdean equivalent.)

Besides which, wasn't he deemed a heretic by contemporary Muslims? (Or was that Averroes?)

That was neither.

I defer to your expertise.

Incidentally, speaking of "Mahound," I think I'll take this opportunity to endorse a good biography of him:

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Prophet- ... 633&sr=8-2

LOL. Good one.