Islam in the United States, with Mormons

[_cksalmon]

Mormon missionaries deserve better than to be used as disposable victims in chapel Islam's never ending jihad against the West. That was my only point.

cks

I'm still debating within myself whether this is an over-reaction. I think it is. But if you can give some evidence of this possibility, I'll do back-flips all the way to Sydney.

An overreaction to what? The impact of this MB? Most likely, indeed. And I actually contributed to the problem I hoped to point out by posting. But, assuming it's not an overreaction, how would one even attempt to gauge that? I have no "evidence of this possibility."

Debate no longer, my friend. No need for back-flips. Call it whatever you like. "Overreaction" is fine. My underlying point stands, I believe.

cks

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... sion&hl=en

[_Ray A]

Debate no longer, my friend. No need for back-flips. Call it whatever you like. "Overreaction" is fine. My underlying point stands, I believe.

cks

Chris, would it be accurate to say that Christians tend to take a very negative view of Muslims? I have a Christian friend who bombards me with emails about how evil Islam is. Now perhaps some of the "radicals" are. Even so, I don't see how a thread on Mormon Discussions can endanger the lives of Mormon missionaries in Islamic countries, and I think we accept that there's no danger in the US.

I haven't been following this closely, but does the Church have a policy of proxy baptisms for deceased Muslims? If so, I would think that's where any potential danger would lie, but not from speculation on a discussion forum.

[_harmony]

Even so, I don't see how a thread on Mormon Discussions can endanger the lives of Mormon missionaries in Islamic countries, and I think we accept that there's no danger in the US.

What Muslim countries have Mormon misisonaries?

[_Ray A]

What Muslim countries have Mormon misisonaries?

Indonesia, for a start, which is the largest Muslim country in the world.

[_cksalmon]

Chris, would it be accurate to say that Christians tend to take a very negative view of Muslims?

I certainly couldn't answer that question, Ray. I can only say that I tend to take a very negative view of the particular Islam I've engaged supra. And I can certainly say that I believe it to be more normative than it is exceptional.

I have a Christian friend who bombards me with emails about how evil Islam is. Now perhaps some of the "radicals" are. Even so, I don't see how a thread on Mormon Discussions can endanger the lives of Mormon missionaries in Islamic countries, and I think we accept that there's no danger in the US.

As to the danger factor via MDB, I've already conceded my overreaction, Ray. As to the fact that there is "no danger in the US," I would suggest that such is the case simply because there is no Muslim majority at this point. There are two "houses" in Islam: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-Harb: the house of war. America is in the house of war for chapel Muslims. Radical Islam ("chapel Islam") is bent on world domination via the sword. Submission or death. That's not my idiosyncratic, fundamentalistic "Christian" perspective: that's the perspective of Arab watchers on the vanguard of Western civilization. Secular and otherwise.

I would be utterly flabbergasted to learn that the LDS church doesn't routinely perform post-mortem ordinances for deceased Muslims. Since when has religious disgust with its practices persuaded the LDS church to discontinue its divinely-appointed mission on behalf of the dead? If they made an exception for Muslims, it must mean that they fear the potential this-worldly reprisal of faithful Muslims more than they fear God. Don't they still dunk on behalf of deceased Jews? Even though they claim to not? But, the Jewish community, worldwide, typically doesn't serially murder, suicidally, those to whom they are religiously opposed. I dunno.

cks

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... sion&hl=en

[_Ray A]

There are two "houses" in Islam: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-Harb: the house of war. America is in the house of war for chapel Muslims. Radical Islam ("chapel Islam") is bent on world domination via the sword. Submission or death. That's not my idiosyncratic, fundamentalistic "Christian" perspective: that's the perspective of Arab watchers on the vanguard of Western civilization. Secular and otherwise.

I should make it clear, Chris, that I'm far from being an apologist for Islam. Most of my Muslim friends are "secular" Muslims, though I do talk to devout Muslims as well. I am perhaps a bit naïve in regard to the motives of radicals, primarily because they have no hold here in Oz, and as soon as their ugly head appears they are ferreted out by the Federal Police and either jailed or deported. Female circumcision is also banned in Oz (not sure about the US), and attempts to make polygamy legal have been quashed.

I'm not sure what freedoms/privileges Muslims have in America, nor how far they are allowed to practice "traditional beliefs".

The Muslims in Indonesia also seem to be under control. In Turkey the burka was banned under a secular government.

Turkey eases ban on headscarves.

by the way, I know heaps of Turkish Muslims. One said to me the other night that he was going to enjoy his days off with a BBQ and beer.

[Guest]

We're only a generation removed from a time when cohabitation was widely accepted as a valid defense against a rape charge.

That was bad.

Given how ridiculously recent and not entirely complete the gains in equality for women in the Western world are compared against the backdrop of 2000 years of Christian thought, this seems extremely shortsighted even if it wasn't too generalized. And there are still large pockets of Christian populations that treat women as second class beings to one degree or another regardless of those feminist gains.

But since what spurred this was a reference to a girl wearing a tank top, this is an especially hypocritical post for a Mormon to make. The LDS Church leaders and its culture has placed significant emphasis on feminine modesty with modesty being narrowly defined as dressing in ways that are not sexually provocative to males within the norms of conservative LDS culture. It's in effect a pressured spiritual dress code. It's as if you are taunting someone to point it out. The main difference with the Islamic subcultures you are chastising are just in what their dress norms are, which is a relatively arbitrary line. The defenses of these cultural practices, especially towards women, generally offered by both groups are virtually identical.

This is EA channeling Tammy Baldwin.

[_Calculus Crusader]

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there is an antisemitic wing of conservatism that is close to where I'm at. It's really a holdover from decades ago when antisemitism was common among conservatives - the Bircher wing. It's difficult to nail down exactly where they are coming from, but it's the general area of libertarian/militia survivalist/conspiratorial/Southern nationalist types. You'll find those people at Lew Rockwell's site and the like. I know that when you are at an LP meeting, if someone starts talking about "international bankers" and their blight upon society, it's not exactly difficult to decode what really is being said.

There are also conservatives who are critical of Israel or American support of Israel (in the form of neoconservatism) who are not antisemitic. Russell Kirk was a fine example.

[_Calculus Crusader]

Like I said, Islam is evil.

Yes.

They are of the same spirit that would crucify Christ.

Mahound was a violent thug. Many (but not all) of his followers are also. Incidentally, Mahound taught that Jesus Christ was not crucified. Rather, he adopted the Gnostic lie that Simon of Cyrene was crucified in Jesus' place, transformed into his likeness whilst Jesus looked on and laughed.

They would murder Joseph Smith!

Joseph Smith is in hell with Mahound (eighth circle, ninth pit) where his sorry ass belongs.

Jesus will put an end to this wicked religion.

He will also put an end to Joseph Smith's transparent fraud.

[_EAllusion]

I hate Tammy Baldwin. I once wrote in Satan in my meaningless protest vote against her.

Also, what I wrote was spot on. I think the appropriate response here is to give me a hive five.