No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Note the above statement which reeks of denial. You see, never claimed not to be a Mormon, but here's ten reasons why Mormons aren't Mormons. It's called conitive dissonance Jason. If you're a Mormon, stand up and be proud of the doctrine unleashed through magic rocks you believe in... Christian doctrine doesn't come from magic rocks.


This is your favorite argument. It is clear to me that the way you in employ it to describe me that you do not understand what cognitive dissonance is.

Look, I really don't like you much or your style. We will just have to disagree on this one.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jason Bourne »

The Temple and what takes place there, has exactly nothing to do with Christianity.


There were and are Christian sects that practice esoteric rites and yet are still considered Christian sects.


The Temple rites/ceremonies were established to maintain and ensure secrecy on the part of Joseph Smith and his inner circle who engaged in plural marriage.


That is one argument.

Many evangelical Christians require more than just devotion to Jesus. They require you get the right theological Jesus which means the way they understand Jesus. For such Christians devotion and faith is not enough. Get the wrong Jesus and you are eternal toast.


Do you think that getting the "right theological Jesus" is unimportant? "Which means the way they understand Jesus" isn't any more effective a defense than LDS who say "their version" of Jesus.

What it means, Jason, is the way that the Bible portrays Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you disagree, tell me how you disagree.


My point is there are many differing positions by many denominations about the nature of God and Christ. And there have been many throughout the history of Christianity. Yet these sects and or theologians are still considered Christian and part of Christianity.

When an EV Christian tells a Mormon they have the wrong Jesus and are thus bound for Hell they don't mean the way the Bible portrays Jesus. They mean the way THEY understand and the way THEY believe the Bible portrays Jesus.

If there can be varying views about the Godhead throughout Christianity and those holding differing views can still be considered under the umbrella of Christianity Mormonism should be able to as well.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jason Bourne
My point is there are many differing positions by many denominations about the nature of God and Christ. And there have been many throughout the history of Christianity. Yet these sects and or theologians are still considered Christian and part of Christianity.

When an EV Christian tells a Mormon they have the wrong Jesus and are thus bound for Hell they don't mean the way the Bible portrays Jesus. They mean the way THEY understand and the way THEY believe the Bible portrays Jesus.

If there can be varying views about the Godhead throughout Christianity and those holding differing views can still be considered under the umbrella of Christianity Mormonism should be able to as well.




I'm not talking about trinity doctrine, fruit loop man. ;-) Show me a reference for any Christian church (besides the LDS church) that believes that Christ is an exalted man who earned his way to exaltation.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jason Bourne
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Being "valiant" isn't part of Christian thought and belief. It is part of Mormonism. No Christian understands what "crowns" means. They surely don't import that to mean that Heaven is some sort of a multi level tier system.



Christians believe in good works. Refomed EV Christians seem to want to base salvation is faith alone. Some are to the point of being hyper Calvinists about it that they think one cannot even exercise faith on their own because that means they did somethingfor salvation. Others Christian denominations emphasize works more yet are still considered Christians and part of Christianity.

Good grief.


Are you frustrated?


For Mormons, Faith in Christ, Repentance, Baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are all that is required to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Read D&C 20:1-38 and D&C 76.
also believe that one must do their best to remain obedient in order to abide in Christ or endure to the end. The do believe one cal fall from grace as do other Christians.


Agreed, except for the multi level tier system it represents. I don't recall any passage of the Bible alluding to the idea that so long as one continues to strive in this life that they will end up anywhere but in Heaven, regardless of the "levels" found in Mormonism which are not Biblical.


Jesus said in the Book of John that in his Father's house there were many mansions. Paul tallke about various types of resurrections. Those passages were the catalyst for the revelation where Joseph Smith claimed to see three degrees of glory in Heaven. One does not have to agree with the interpretation of these passages but just because Mormons understand this in a different way than reformed Christianity does not kick Mormonism out of Christianity. Catholics have purgatory. Protestants do not. Are Protestants not part of Christianity because the lack of that or Catholics because of its inclusion?


The additional temple ordinances and works required to enter into the temple are what qualify persons who are in the celestial kingdom for greater rewards.

"are what qualify persons"? Qualifies, Jason?

The required "additional temple ordinances and works" in Mormonism is in large part what shoves it off the Christian highway.

Nowhere in the Bible, does God "require" such ordinances.



Catholics believe in ordinances and are still part of Christianity. Certainly an argument that the ordinance of baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are required by the Bible can be made. EV Christians have told me that works brings rewards. Just because they do not know what those rewards are and Mormons think they do does not mean Mormonism is not part of Christianity.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I'm not talking about trinity doctrine, fruit loop man. ;-) Show me a reference for any Christian church (besides the LDS church) that believes that Christ is an exalted man who earned his way to exaltation.



Mormons do not believe that Jesus was an exalted man who earned his way to exaltation. They believe Jesus was already exalted before he was born into the world. They do believe that God the Father was most likely a mortal man at some point. Exactly how he was a man is argued among Mormons. Some believe he may have been a man only the way Jesus was-Already God before his birth and a savior of a world. Others think he could have been an ordinary man.

So what? Do all Christian sects agree on all points of doctrine?

Mormonism encompassed all the Bible teaches about Jesus, claims he is divine, agrees His name is the only name whereby we can be saved and so on. Yes Mormonism has some unique ideas that most if not all of Christianity may differ with and find it heretical and even blasphemous. Many EV Christians feel the same about Catholicism. So? Mormonism is part of Christianity. And whether you like it or not using the tern subset is appropriate.

And if one wants to take Mormonism to the essence of its message it claims to be Christianity and all the rest are apostate wannabees. But is it not nice to say that anymore so the Mormon Church has become more polite about it.

I think I have exhausted discussing this. I am sure we will never agree on this point.
_thews
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _thews »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Note the above statement which reeks of denial. You see, never claimed not to be a Mormon, but here's ten reasons why Mormons aren't Mormons. It's called conitive dissonance Jason. If you're a Mormon, stand up and be proud of the doctrine unleashed through magic rocks you believe in... Christian doctrine doesn't come from magic rocks.


This is your favorite argument. It is clear to me that the way you in employ it to describe me that you do not understand what cognitive dissonance is.

Look, I really don't like you much or your style. We will just have to disagree on this one.

Gosh, I'm so hurt Jason the Mormon, if only you would like me, my life would be complete. Mystical magical rocks in the hat of con man aren't Christian Jason, they're "Mormon" and I know what cognitive dissonance is, along with a dictionary to define words and what they mean ...not what I want them to mean.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Mormon
Mor·mon (môrmn) Mormon Church
n.
1. An ancient prophet believed (By Mormons) to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.
2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.
adj.
Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.


PS - Emphasis mine (bold), and aluminum is not copper and copper is not aluminum.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_beastie
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _beastie »

In order to reach a reasonable definition of the word “Christian”, it is necessary to remove the discussion from the squabbles within Christian sects. There are some extremely conservative Evangelical faiths that do not believe Catholics or liberal Protestant sects can count as “Christian”. Any definition that excludes groups that, outside the squabbles of sects, the rest of the world universally views as Christian is worthless and meaningless.

So the definition of Christian, by necessity, ends up being quite generic, as seen here:

1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian

or here:

adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.


http://www.answers.com/topic/christian

…then Mormonism, in my opinion, must be logically accepted as a Christian sect. As I said repeatedly in the last thread on this topic, one can also fairly state that it’s outside of mainstream Christianity, or even that it’s an heretical Christian faith, but it is absolutely based on the Biblical Jesus.

In regards to disputes over the nature of Jesus (exalted being in the pre-existence, the nature of the godhead), there is evidence that early Christians were divided on issues related to some of these questions, as well, so to insist on separating Mormonism based on theological disputes over the nature of the godhead seems specious to me.

I think this site gives a reasonable assessment from Religious Tolerance

WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?

Which definition is correct?

Which one does this website use?

Which definition is correct?

This question assumes that there is one and only one correct definition of the term "Christian."

However, depending upon your understanding of the nature of truth, many definitions may be "true" to various groups:

• To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.
• To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs about the nature of sacrements, their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.
• To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.
• And so on, with other faith groups.

Each group has their own definition of "Christian" which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, the cultures in which they are implanted, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word "Christian."

There is no consensus on what the "correct" definition of "Christian" is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. Therefore questions like "Are you a Christian?" or "How many Christians are there in the U.S." are only meaningful:

• Within a single denomination, or among a group of similarly-minded denominations.
• In a public opinion poll where the definition of "Christian" is either clearly stated or left up to the subject to define.

The definition used on this web site:

We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. That is, they honestly believe themselves to be a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ).

In North America there are over a thousand faith groups including the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, other conservative, mainline, liberal and progressive Christian faith groups; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, Christian Science, progressive Christians, and other religious organizations. They all identify themselves as Christian. In fact, many regard their group as the only "true" Christian church. Yet they, and their followers, have very different beliefs about the life, events, teachings, actions, sinlessness and expectations of Yeshua.

Also included as Christians are those who regard themselves as being followers of Jesus even though they do not affiliate themselves with any particular religious group. They appear to be growing in numbers.

We realize that we are defining Christians in terms of being Christian. As one person Emailed us, that is like defining a parrot as "something that has the characteristics of a parrot." But since there is no consensus on the definition of "Christian," we see no other choice. On the other hand, there is a general agreement about what a parrot -- or mountain, or car, or computer -- are.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn3.htm

When I was LDS I worshipped Jesus as my personal Savior. Do any of you fellow exmormons deny that you did the same, when you were believing LDS? While, like other LDS, I idolized Joseph Smith, I never worshipped him as a deity. Regardless of Jesus's pre-existent status (and why believers in the trinity would quibble over that is beyond me, given the fact that they believe Jesus and The Father are the same being, hence, Jesus was, by default, God before his birth as well), I firmly believed Jesus was the Son of God, and his atonement made my personal salvation possible. Yes, LDS believe that works are necessary to obtain the highest degree of glory, but Catholics believe baptism is a requirement for heaven, as well – or at least traditional Catholicism teaches that. I think it can be argued the LDS church is more universalist than traditional catholicism in that regard. But my understanding of LDS teaching was that all the works in the world would be pointless without Christ’s atonement in the first place.

I do admit I find the idea that one could profess to accept Jesus as one's personal Savior, and then live a horrible life, and STILL be "saved" a bit repulsive.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jason Bourne
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Gosh, I'm so hurt Jason the Mormon, if only you would like me, my life would be complete



I see your alleged Christian faith is really helping you be a better Christian. You don't seem to treat those who challenge you here with any Christian attributes.



. Mystical magical rocks in the hat of con man aren't Christian Jason, they're "Mormon"


Sort of like angels speaking to shepherds,getting water from a rock, parting a sea, flooding a world, putting mud and spit in someones eyes to heal blindness and so on. Your own faith is full of supernatural events that seem strange and odd. But this is typical cognitive dissonance and you seem to excel at that which you think others have. You seem unable to apply the same methods to your own faith that you use to criticize others.

and I know what cognitive dissonance is, along with a dictionary to define words and what they mean ...not what I want them to mean.


If you do you misapply it regularly.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Mormon
Mor·mon (môrmn) Mormon Church
n.
1. An ancient prophet believed (By Mormons) to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which were translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.
2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.
adj.
Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.





You left our part of the defenition. How convenient:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Mormon

Mormon [ˈmɔːmən]
n
1. (Christian Churches, other) a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, founded in 1830 at La Fayette, New York, by Joseph Smith (1805-44)
2. (Christian Churches, other) a prophet whose supposed revelations were recorded by Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon
adj
(Christian Churches, other) of or relating to the Mormons, their Church, or their beliefs
Mormonism n



How about a few others:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lutheran

Lu·ther·an (lthr-n)
adj.
1. Of or relating to Luther or his religious teachings and especially to the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
2. Of or relating to the branch of the Protestant Church adhering to the views of Luther.
n.
A member of the Lutheran Church.

Christianity / Protestantism) a follower of Martin Luther (1483-1546), the German leader of the Protestant Reformation, or a member of a Lutheran Church
adj
1. (Christianity / Protestantism) of or relating to Luther or his doctrines, the most important being justification by faith alone, consubstantiation, and the authority of the Bible
2. (Christianity / Protestantism) of or denoting any Protestant Church that follows Luther's doctrines
Lutheranism n

Meth·od·ist (mth-dst)
n.
1. A member of an evangelical Protestant church founded on the principles of John and Charles Wesley in England in the early 18th century and characterized by active concern with social welfare and public morals.
2. methodist One who emphasizes or insists on systematic procedure.

Methodist [ˈmɛθədɪst]
n
(Christianity / Protestantism) a member of any of the Nonconformist denominations that derive from the system of faith and practice initiated by the English preacher John Wesley (1703-91) and his followers
adj also Methodistic, Methodistical
(Christianity / Protestantism) of or relating to Methodism or the Church embodying it (the Methodist Church)
Methodistically adv


So Mormons are influenced by Joseph Smith and their leaders, Lutherans by Martin Luther and his teachings, which were considered heretical and non Christian by the Catholic Church. And Methodists are influenced by the teachings of John Wesley. All are considered Christian Churches.

PS - Emphasis mine (bold), and aluminum is not copper and copper is not aluminum.


All are metal just different types.

Ok, I really don't want to be nasty with you anymore. Feel free to have the last word if you wish.
_Gadianton Plumber

Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _Gadianton Plumber »

I am convinced. Mormonism is taxonomically Christian.

























































I accept the Mr. Potato Head Jesus as my personal savior.
_beastie
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Re: No, DCP. You are being liberal with the truth again.

Post by _beastie »

GP -

Asserting that the Mormon Jesus is so dramatically different than the Biblical Jesus that an equivalent is Mr. Potato Head is just silly.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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