How many posters on MD were once apologists?

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_Buffalo
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Rambo wrote:
It least buffalo has scientific evidence that proves the Book of Mormon not true. What do you have? A special feeling in your heart?


There's more than that. After all, relying solely upon emotional feelings may mislead. Back to your assertion that the Book of Mormon was definitely written by one man. And to your scientific evidence fixation.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... nt_studies

Are you 100% sure that the Book of Mormon was written by "a man"? A scientific study (peer reviewed) seems to point a different direction.

Regards,
MG


Palmer identifies several sources for the Book of Mormon, such as the King James Bible, local revival evangelism, Smith family biography/dreams, American antiquities, stories from the War of 1812 and anti-masonic hysteria.

In the end it doesn't really matter who wrote it - it could only have been written in the 19th century.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

Themis wrote:
Nonsense. Science is a great example of the arm of flesh using a methodolgy to look at the world around them. It has proven itself to be the most reliable method we have. The spiritual is terrrible compared to it and most other ways of looking at the world around us, and I love the spiritual. What you think to not be the arm of flesh but God can't even be relibale, so we should not ignore the other evidence when it does not fit what we want to believe. It's the former believers who I think best understand this.


Exactly. "The Spirit" gives endless conflicting information, even just within Mormonism. The scientific method is the ONLY reliable way we've found to evaluate our world.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Themis wrote:Science is a great example of the arm of flesh using a methodolgy to look at the world around them. It has proven itself to be the most reliable method we have.


But at times unreliable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded ... c_theories

http://listverse.com/2009/01/19/10-debu ... -the-past/

Arm of the flesh investigation is not always dependable and sacrosanct.

Regards,
MG


Science is the best method for discovering truth. There is no perfect method. But science, unlike religion, is not afraid to abandon errors when they're made known.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Buffalo »

Milesius wrote:
1. The modal ontological arguments of Charles Hartshorne and Kurt Gödel.

2. The argument from contingency.

3. This argument I borrowed from David Bartholomew.

Read those (or have them read to you.)


Another person who doesn't understand what the word "evidence" means.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Kishkumen
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Welcome, bloggernacleburner! That's a great story.

bloggernacleburner wrote:I developed my love of philosophy by reading apologetic texts. Say what you will about Nibley's actual arguments, the man has panache in his writing. Nibley led me to Brody, and his critique of Brody rang hollow after I read No Man Knows My History. I did read the FARMS review of books, and I reveled in the irreverent treatment of those who were obviously in the wrong.

Then I turned 18, went to BYU, fell in with Randians, dropped Ayn, became a Mormon socialist, dropped socialism, went on a mission and found myself face to face with the corporate Mormon culture... emphasis on the Cult.

I was quite experienced in apologist arguments, and I spent a fair amount of time talking with other apologists on various forums and email lists. However, the philosophy instruction from Nibley and the other apologists I'd read led me into philosophy classes... where the misuse of ideas becomes rather blatant among apologists, and even more grating when you get blatant logical fallacies from the pulpit at General conference.

I guess I was sort of an apologist. I never sallied forth to do battle, but I did talk about it quite a bit. Apologetic's was the gateway drug to philosophy, history and critical theory.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_mentalgymnast

Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

MG: How do you think the Book of Mormon came to be?

Themis:The evidence suggests an 19th century production.


The 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon is essentially what Joseph Smith dictated. Eyewitness accounts bear this out. How was this done? Remember, he had a seer stone inside of a hat for a good portion of the process. The scribes had to keep up with what they heard without paragraphing, punctuation, or knowledge of how a sentence might end. Joseph Smith dictated in blocks of twenty words or so and he himself may not have known where a complicated sentence was going. How do you explain the actual evidence/process in regards to the translation?

I'm assuming you've also read Emma's account in regards to her participation in the the translation process. She mentions that Joseph never worked from notes or script and that whenever he took a break, he would begin again exactly where he left off, without seeing the manuscript or having anyone read back to him the last few sentences he had translated.

Terryl Givens said:
The naked implausibility of gold plates, seer stones, and warrior-angels finds little by way of scientific corroboration, but attributing to a young farmboy the 90-day dictated and unrevised production of a 500-page narrative that incorporates sophisticated literary structures, remarkable Old World parallels, and some 300 references to chronology and 700 to geography with virtually perfect self-consistency is problematic as well.


I think there is more to it than brashly stating that the Book of Mormon is simply an 19th century production.

The narrative complexity in and of itself does not jive with the mode and means of translation.

Look at the book of Ether.

From Grant Hardy:
The genealogy in the first chapter provides the framework for the chronicle of Jaredite kings in the chapters 6 through 11. That is, Joseph dictated a log string of twenty-seven unusual names and then several pages later repeated the list, but this time with stories attached to each name. If he were composing as he went along, this would be quite a feat of memory, especially since the names in the narrative portion are in reverse order from the way they appear in the genealogical list.


Throwing out sound bites such as "The evidence suggests an 19th century production" doesn't do a whole lot to actually show evidence of anything except that you have an opinion.

Is there a Media Matters equivalent for Mormon critics to draw from for their programmed and politically correct (at least for this board) sound bites?

Regards,
MG
_Chap
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Chap »

We seem to be moving into a 'how was the Book of Mormon written?' mode that is certainly off-topic, and if felt interesting enough should go into another thread.

Returning to the OP, I'd like to give it a twist:

How many currently active LDS apologists (as opposed to simply active LDS) were once critics who used to post on Mormon Discussions?

I mean, I'd like to know if I am running a significant chance of losing 10% of my gross income by hanging around here.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_lostindc
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _lostindc »

Chap wrote:We seem to be moving into a 'how was the Book of Mormon written?' mode that is certainly off-topic, and if felt interesting enough should go into another thread.

Returning to the OP, I'd like to give it a twist:

How many currently active LDS apologists (as opposed to simply active LDS) were once critics who used to post on Mormon Discussions?

I mean, I'd like to know if I am running a significant chance of losing 10% of my gross income by hanging around here.


Fantastic question! How many once critics are now apologists?
2019 = #100,000missionariesstrong
_Chap
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Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Chap »

lostindc wrote:
Chap wrote:We seem to be moving into a 'how was the Book of Mormon written?' mode that is certainly off-topic, and if felt interesting enough should go into another thread.

Returning to the OP, I'd like to give it a twist:

How many currently active LDS apologists (as opposed to simply active LDS) were once critics who used to post on Mormon Discussions?

I mean, I'd like to know if I am running a significant chance of losing 10% of my gross income by hanging around here.


Fantastic question! How many once critics are now apologists?


There was one guy who came over to the dark side, for a while, and then went back I believe. The one who posts as onandagus, I think?

What would be really interesting would be to find a nevermo who joined in the arguments, and then said 'hey ... looks like they are right after all' and then joined. Has there ever been one?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
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Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: How many posters on MD were once apologists?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:Returning to the OP, I'd like to give it a twist:

How many currently active LDS apologists (as opposed to simply active LDS) were once critics who used to post on Mormon Discussions?

I mean, I'd like to know if I am running a significant chance of losing 10% of my gross income by hanging around here.


Don Bradley is a noteworthy defector from the critics' camp.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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