Testing Stuff

[_Morley]

....
Wehre does the Church say everyone who prays about the Book of Mormon will receive an answer that it is true? ....

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

edited to add: So, I'm not sincere, correct?

[_just me]

I don't have time for a long detailed comment right now. Plus, I still don't understand some of your sentences, sorry.

I just have one question, stem. Do you believe that everyone who does not get a witness that the Book of Mormon is true is to blame? In other words, they did it wrong by either lacking faith or true intent?

Does the church not teach that the correct answer is a witness that the Book of Mormon is true? I would be shocked if you could come up with anything other than that in church material.

Ok, maybe I will get into this.

Well nothing is perfect. That's just how it is. we should expect to have to deal with some errors. In time hopefully those errors, while running through the refinement process, get identified and corrections are made.

And how are the errors identified and corrected? Are they identified using prayer or because it becomes ridiculous to hold on to certain beliefs after so much scientific evidence has been produced or social pressure?

It just seems like you are content to trust the church and ignore all the hundreds of things that just don't add up.

Why do you believe that there was death in the world before A&E when the Book of Mormon says there wasn't?
Why do you believe A&E lived 6000ish years ago....or do you?

How do you decide which scriptures you will believe or disbelieve? Prayer? The prophet? What is the correct method to determining truth from error in a book that God told you was "true?"

[_LDSToronto]

In any field of research (historical, scientific, literary, etc), different methods of inquiry can lead to results that differ. In the field of LDS spiritual inquiry, the tools are not varied; in fact there is but one - revelation via prayer. If all pray to a Supreme Being for revelation on the matter of universal, or objective truth, does it not stand to reason that all should receive the same answer?

H.

If "pray" was the only requirement, yes. But there are a lot of factors involved. They have to do with sincerity of heart and all that. Also, conclusions are reached based on answers. Conclusions themselves are the product of individual humans. If it was as simple as you say, then there would be no problems and no contradictions, but its not that simple, sadly. And that is quite like historical research in a sense. different conclusions can easily be reached by experts.

Let's put conclusions off to the side for now and assume that for most, if revelation came from from God, they'd recognize it and interpret it as God intends.

Rather, let's talk about the requirements necessary for receiving revelation. From your response, it appears that prayer is necessary, but not sufficient. You've mentioned there are a lot of factors involved, first amongst them, a sincere heart.

Since there is more to the LDS method of spiritual inquiry than prayer and a sincere heart, perhaps it would be good to step back and define the necessary requirements to receiving revelation via the LDS method of spiritual inquiry. So far, we have:

1. Prayer
2. A sincere heart

What is the full list of conditions that must be fulfilled?

H.

[_stemelbow]

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

edited to add: So, I'm not sincere, correct?

There are more "ifs" then sincerity. And its not my call, of course. Thanks for bringing the quote though. It helps my point. It does not say that everyone who throws out a prayer will receive an answer it takes more than saying a few words, of course.

[_stemelbow]

Do you believe that everyone who does not get a witness that the Book of Mormon is true is to blame? In other words, they did it wrong by either lacking faith or true intent?

No. I mean have a sincere heart is not an easy thing to acheive, in some sense. I don't think anyone's heart has been totally "sincere", but results still ahve been acheived. Its all on God to decide who and how to answer. He's just saying these things, it seems to me, so we can be sure it takes effort on our part--not that he expects perfection.

Does the church not teach that the correct answer is a witness that the Book of Mormon is true? I would be shocked if you could come up with anything other than that in church material.

The Church does teach that.

And how are the errors identified and corrected? Are they identified using prayer or because it becomes ridiculous to hold on to certain beliefs after so much scientific evidence has been produced or social pressure?

I'd imagine there are many possible factors to help weed out errors. the two you mention are a small sampling.

It just seems like you are content to trust the church and ignore all the hundreds of things that just don't add up.

Of course it seems that way to you. but that doesn't matter. I know me. I know I didn't trust the Church when it came to prop 8. But in other cases I do just simply trust the Church because its far too tiring to question and wonder about every little thing.

Why do you believe that there was death in the world before A&E when the Book of Mormon says there wasn't?

I iddn't say that's what i believed.

Why do you believe A&E lived 6000ish years ago....or do you?

I didn't say that's what I believed either.

How do you decide which scriptures you will believe or disbelieve? Prayer? The prophet?

Which scriptures? Basically i trust they are true because I've received spiritual witness until, for whatever reason, I have a suspicion about them, or at least the overt seeming meaning of them. The additional news here is sometimes what I think the scripture means doesn't comport well with my studies on that scripture. Its not easy sometimes.

What is the correct method to determining truth from error in a book that God told you was "true?"

Its a good question. I don'tknow if there is just one correct method though. I mean there are tons of factors to consider--all types of scientific research can play a roll.

[_stemelbow]

Let's put conclusions off to the side for now and assume that for most, if revelation came from from God, they'd recognize it and interpret it as God intends.

Rather, let's talk about the requirements necessary for receiving revelation. From your response, it appears that prayer is necessary, but not sufficient. You've mentioned there are a lot of factors involved, first amongst them, a sincere heart.

Since there is more to the LDS method of spiritual inquiry than prayer and a sincere heart, perhaps it would be good to step back and define the necessary requirements to receiving revelation via the LDS method of spiritual inquiry. So far, we have:

1. Prayer
2. A sincere heart

What is the full list of conditions that must be fulfilled?

H.

As result of this discussion, we already have an example on the table in Moroni, T. I'm not saying its exhaustive or all inclusive, but its a good start.

[_just me]

So the LDS position is this (it seems): Pray and see if God will "show" you truth.

It seems apparent to me many don't find that an adequate way to determine truth. Indeed most of the criticisms deal with scientific concepts or established rules of historic research. But how are the tools (scientific method and such) developed to figure out that which we can see, or detect going to translate to determine the existence of something we can't see or detect, like God?

Stem, let's look back at your OP.

You claim here that the church position is to pray and God will reveal the truth to you.

Are you now saying that it is not actually that simple? Do you think the church teaches it is not that simple or is it just your personal belief that it is not that simple?

What is God's method of testing stuff?

[_stemelbow]

Stem, let's look back at your OP.

You claim here that the church position is to pray and God will reveal the truth to you.

Are you now saying that it is not actually that simple? Do you think the church teaches it is not that simple or is it just your personal belief that it is not that simple?

What is God's method of testing stuff?

I put it that simply in my OP for the sake of brevity. But no I don't think its generally that simple, ableit I don't discount the possibility that it is for some.

God's method for testing stuff? I don't know His method for testing.

[_Themis]

I'll just quickly sum up what I've said on this (and hopefully it'll make sense). I can test the spiritual experiences myself. I can't show my experience or my own verification of it. I don't htink it was meant to work that way.

And how do you test the spiritual expereinces? What is the basis on how you determine what is true and false. Seems the biggest hurdle is how one would know that the expereinces is coming from a divine being. How do you determine this?

Runtu is right that the spiritual is totally subjective and not really transferable. Scientific method is. If something is not reliable then it is eventually rejected. This is why carbon dating is still used and very realible, even though those using it have to do so within established means so as not to get incorrect results.

[_just me]

Stem, let's look back at your OP.

You claim here that the church position is to pray and God will reveal the truth to you.

Are you now saying that it is not actually that simple? Do you think the church teaches it is not that simple or is it just your personal belief that it is not that simple?

What is God's method of testing stuff?

I put it that simply in my OP for the sake of brevity. But no I don't think its generally that simple, ableit I don't discount the possibility that it is for some.

God's method for testing stuff? I don't know His method for testing.

Stem, I want to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Please outline to me what steps I must take to learn if it is true or false. By true, I am assuming that we mean a true historical and spiritual record of the Nephites.