Shocked by Polygamy

[_Tobin]

There is literally zero evidence for that assertion.

Really? Why were women married to the prophet after he was dead then? You just don't understand it at all.

Because it was doctrine in BY's time that you'd get a greater kingdom by being sealed to more prominent members. That's why many men were sealed as sons to BY, even though they were not related.

And the same was true here. There was no adultery. It is just rumor and innuendo based on no facts (no sex, no testimony, and NO CHILDREN including Josephine). I'll nip that in the bud here and state that Sylvia's comments to her were only meant in the eternities and she was not Joseph Smith's biological daughter.

[_Buffalo]

And the same was true here. There was no adultery. It is just rumor and innuendo based on no facts (no sex, no testimony, and NO CHILDREN including Josephine). I'll nip that in the bud here and state that Sylvia's comments to her were only meant in the eternities and she was not Joseph Smith's biological daughter.

Having sex with other men's wives is adultery by any standard. His wives attested to the aforementioned boning.

No children yet found is evidence of Joseph's ability to pull out in time, or else employ the services of his close personal abortionist friend John C. Bennett.

Why would Syliva think that it was Joseph Smith' daughter if there had been no boning? Why would so many good LDS women testify under oath that they in fact had been boned by the Prophet? Why would Eliza Snow think that a woman who assumed, as you do, that the marriages were platonic, was naïve?

[_Tobin]

Having sex with other men's wives is adultery by any standard. His wives attested to the aforementioned boning.

Which wives? Don't mix apples and oranges. The single wives in a plural marriage with Joseph Smith did have sex with him. The married ones did not.

No children yet found is evidence of Joseph's ability to pull out in time, or else employ the services of his close personal abortionist friend John C. Bennett.

There is no evidence of that what-so-ever.

Why would Syliva think that it was Joseph Smith' daughter if there had been no boning?

She didn't.

Why would so many good LDS women testify under oath that they in fact had been boned by the Prophet?

Again, apples and oranges. And don't forget that some women, who were sealed to him after he died, claimed to have had sex with him? Are you stating Joseph Smith came back to life too?

Why would Eliza Snow think that a woman who assumed, as you do, that the marriages were platonic, was naïve?

Again, apples and oranges.

[_Buffalo]

The single wives in a plural marriage with Joseph Smith did have sex with him. The married ones did not.

The main reason to marry married women was that accidental pregnancies would be easier to explain.

On January 27, 1844 her only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

Presumably Sylvia knew how children were conceived. Your attempts to besmirch this good woman's name notwithstanding.

“[Joseph Smith III] said, ‘I am informed that Eliza Snow was a virgin at the time of her death.” I in turn said, ‘Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked her the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, “I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.”’

Don't be naïve, Tobin.

[_Fence Sitter]

And the same was true here. There was no adultery. It is just rumor and innuendo based on no facts (no sex, no testimony, and NO CHILDREN including Josephine). I'll nip that in the bud here and state that Sylvia's comments to her were only meant in the eternities and she was not Joseph Smith's biological daughter.

Tobin,

I think you may not want to hang so much on this. While it is still a rumor (and yes that is not much) I am hearing that some of the unpublished DNA results are going to show biological evidence.
I don't think the fact it does or does not is indication of much of anything. It is clear Joseph Smith was having sex with multiple wives and it is clear he was doing it behind Emma's back. It is also clear that he was publicly lying about doing it on multiple occasions. I am not sure what victory is to be gained by believing he avoided sex with his already married wives or the lack of children. What is clear was he did not practice polygamy according to his own revelation on the subject and was violating the laws of the land at the same time.

[_just me]

Why would so many good LDS women testify under oath that they in fact had been boned by the Prophet?

Again, apples and oranges. And don't forget that some women, who were sealed to him after he died, claimed to have had sex with him? Are you stating Joseph Smith came back to life too?

What on earth are you talking about? Joseph Smith wasn't actually "sealed" to any of his plural wives until after he died. It was all done by proxy. The temple was never completed...
The ceremony that was done outside the temple, whatever you want to call it, was all they needed to consider themselves his wives.

Who claimed to have sex with him who did not have some type of ceremony with him while Joseph Smith was alive? Names please.

[_son of Ishmael]

... All of that behavior makes Joseph look less like a true prophet of the restored gospel, and much more like every other cult leader throughout history who, despite whatever else they teach and whatever good they might do, always seem to end up having sex with their followers.

Amen. You hit the nail on the head

[_Tobin]

On January 27, 1844 her only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

Presumably Sylvia knew how children were conceived. Your attempts to besmirch this good woman's name notwithstanding.

Again, just mischaracterizing what was said. These dynastic marriages were secret and it was believed by Sylvia that in the eternities that Josphine was Joseph Smith's daughter. She wasn't his biological daughter and there is absolutely NO proof of that what-so-ever.

And to your next point, Eliza R. Snow was NOT married to anyone but the prophet and later to BY after Joseph Smith's death.

[_Tobin]

...

That's interesting because all the tests I've heard of were negative. Who's left to test? I thought all the most likely candidates had been tested.

[Guest]

I'm not shocked by polygamy any more than I am by infidelity. I do, however, get upset by how people try to justify their actions.

I had (and HAD is the operative word) a friend who showed up for a conference not wearing his wedding ring. He had the ring in his suit pocket, where he had put it the night before. He had come into town a day ahead of the conference and stayed at the conference hotel.

I didn't reflect on the incident very much until I heard that his wife had asked him to move out. She was pregnant with their third child (#3 in a relatively short period of time).

My wife had talked, at length, with his wife after a sacrament meeting and had learned all the details. My former pal had spent an extra day at the conference hotel before heading home, from the afore-mentioned conference, and in a sort of Freudian slip had forgotten to put his ring on before he entered his home. His wife didn't miss the glaring white band of un-sunned skin on his third finger and had immediately begun a third degree interrogation.

When I met him next he was in divorce proceedings living a "luxurious" life of a mid-thirties, pre-owned, bachelor in a tiny singles apartment. He was miserable, as was his ex, now mother of three, but there was no common ground shared between them except for the venereal disease he had so gracíously brought home as a gift.

That was the last time I ever had any communication with him. Where he is now, and what he does is, of no interest to me. When I asked him how he could have been so stupid as to throw away all things he held precious, he responded with, "My wife was only interested in taking care of the kids, she had no time for me. But I'm only a man, I have needs, too."

He went instantly from being a friend to being a nobody in my books.

I would probably have listened if he had admitted the stupidity of his actions but he shifted all the blame to her. I would not have listened to him, for even one second longer than I did, had he stated that "Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him."

I'm not shocked to learn that Joseph Smith committed adultery. I am appalled that he claimed "God told me to."