Sophocles wrote:If Peterson's true intent was to drive home this point, why not use the injustices committed against his own ancestors as an example? Surely something good came of Missouri Executive Order 44 or the Haun's Mill massacre. Can't he see that he's much better situated to make his point from that angle?
Great point. Why not have DCP or Schryver deliver one of the most impassioned speeches that anyone has ever heard in their entire life? Every TBM should thank God almighty that he saw fit to drive their forefathers from that filthy Missouri hell hole and plant them in the Salt Lake valley where, after many generations, the majority of them are free from the persecutions inflicted on their ancestors. Yes, the persecution of the Mormons was inherently evil. Many suffered, not the least the persecutors stained by its shame. But there was a divine purpose in these things, and we must not mock god by failing to see his hand in all things.
Actually, I have seen this point made..not by Dan, but by others who have given talks and/or written pro-LDS literature. I will have to look up sources.
Kishkumen wrote:It probably goes without saying that I find the ideology of people like Daniel Peterson and William Schryver completely repugnant, but I thought I would repeat that here. The pianist can be grateful for whatever he likes. The implicit, smug self-congratulations that go with their smarmy approval of his statement makes me ill.
Of course it could all just be made up. The following passage sounded just a leetle bit suggestive of that - though the fact it was included is pure, pure Schryver self-preening:
Mr. Franklin was taking a break from his piano playing when I walked by, so I took the opportunity to sit down next to him and ask if I might play his piano for a few minutes while he rested. He was initially reluctant—imagining, I'm sure, a clumsy rendition of chopsticks that would embarrass him and the upscale guests of the Intercontinental. But he relented with the caveat that I play softly and only for a minute or two. So I sat down at the keyboard, played a few arpeggios to familiarize myself with its touch, and proceeded to improvise on a little bluesy composition I had come up with a few weeks earlier. As it turned out, Mr. Franklin let me continue for 15 – 20 minutes, and afterwards invited me to sit down next to him to chat a bit.
"You look like a rugged mountain man, but you play with surprising delicacy, son."
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Molok wrote: portraying slaves as the lucky ones is more than a little offensive. It almost makes it sound like we did them a favor, which we certainly didn't.
Well strictly speaking I read an ironic observation about benfits for the descendents of slaves not slaves. Either way it is sounds like a dangerous irony to make. After all it could be confused with old statements justifying slavery. In a derivative way it could sound like a justification of segregation policies. At least in the blog linked no such connections are made. Instead I hear implied a support of the basic values of the American experiment. I, with the blog, can celebrate the beginning possiblity that people abused by the largest betrayal of the American hope, slavery, may have descendants who benefit from the American experiment and benefit from their own contribution, to that dream.
Perhaps a similar irony would be the observation that the United States should be grateful for the contribution of our Black citizens and their ancestors. They are after all more than the focus of our sin.
static wrote:So? I find some good in almost everything. I find at least one good thing about the Nazi Regime: they made the Volkswagen. The rest is horrendous, but there is some measure of good. Nothing is all bad or all good, you see.
But the particular posts by Dan and Will we are discussing in this thread make the case for slavery as a "blessing" or "inspired." I find that sick. Dan and Will are getting awfully close to "Randy Bott territory," and you apparently have no problem with that. Well, many of us do.
??????????
I don't see that as what Dan is saying here at all. He is not saying that slavery was a blessing or inspired. He is saying that blessings ended up happening in spite of slavery, which he always associates as being evil.
DarkHelmet wrote:Why not have DCP or Schryver deliver one of the most impassioned speeches that anyone has ever heard in their entire life? Every TBM should thank God almighty that he saw fit to drive their forefathers from that filthy Missouri hell hole and plant them in the Salt Lake valley where, after many generations, the majority of them are free from the persecutions inflicted on their ancestors. Yes, the persecution of the Mormons was inherently evil. Many suffered, not the least the persecutors stained by its shame. But there was a divine purpose in these things, and we must not mock god by failing to see his hand in all things.
Actually, I have seen this point made..not by Dan, but by others who have given talks and/or written pro-LDS literature. I will have to look up sources.
Let me know if you find one from a non-LDS Missourian who assures us that it's cool if he waxes eloquent about the blessings of Mormon persecution because none of his ancestors were directly involved in their expulsion from the state.
liz3564 wrote:I don't see that as what Dan is saying here at all. He is not saying that slavery was a blessing or inspired. He is saying that blessings ended up happening in spite of slavery, which he always associates as being evil.
I read Dan's post to offer some sort of "silver lining" to American slavery. I personally view American slavery as repugnant in every way, meaning I don't see any "silver lining." The fact that descendants of American slaves may be doing well today does not in any way translate to "good" coming from American slavery 150 years ago. Slavery was a vile, sick, unconscionable and inexcusable man-made institution (despite BY's claim to the contrary). I cannot see ANY good, blessing, or inspiration in connection with American slavery, and I will disagree with anyone who tries to argue otherwise.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Sophocles wrote:Let me know if you find one from a non-LDS Missourian who assures us that it's cool if he waxes eloquent about the blessings of Mormon persecution because none of his ancestors were directly involved in their expulsion from the state.
That is not the point being made...in either case....Dan's example, or mine. The point is that sometime good things, or blessings, can happen, even when something very evil occurred.
The Lord didn't plan slavery, or the persecution of the LDS in Missouri. Did he know these evils would probably happen? Yes, due to free agency existing, and some men unfortunately choosing evil. However, even though evil occurred, blessings still eventually ensued, which is a good thing.
Surely DCP can defend himself, can't he? Why let yourself get snaked into arguing such a nasty position?
We all know what would follow a thread like this: a passive aggressive blog post tomorrow...
Love ya tons
Love you, too, Eric!
Yes, I know that Dan can defend himself. But when I read something, I try to read the entire article and make assessments based on what the message of the author truly is.
That is honestly what I am doing.
In another thread on here, I am in the process of critiquing a rather nasty article which, I believe, is nothing more than a trashing of Joanna Brooks, and has more generalizations in it than Wrigleys has chewing gum! LOL Stay tuned for that as well.
I simply try to call things the way I see them. That's all.
Sophocles wrote:Let me know if you find one from a non-LDS Missourian who assures us that it's cool if he waxes eloquent about the blessings of Mormon persecution because none of his ancestors were directly involved in their expulsion from the state.
That is not the point being made...in either case....Dan's example, or mine. The point is that sometime good things, or blessings, can happen, even when something very evil occurred.
The Lord didn't plan slavery, or the persecution of the LDS in Missouri. Did he know these evils would probably happen? Yes, due to free agency existing, and some men unfortunately choosing evil. However, even though evil occurred, blessings still eventually ensued, which is a good thing.
This kind of thing from a sane and decent person like LIz makes me feel really glad that I finally got Christianity out of my brain.
There is nothing that should be said about foul and repulsive past acts by human beings except that they were foul and repulsive. Then stop there. Maybe stay silent for a bit, then bury the past like the dead it claimed.
Going on to say something along the lines of 'But the Lord brought blessings out of it somehow, and that is good' is ... well, I shall just say 'inappropriate'.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
