3sheets2thewind wrote:you did sexualize the conversation, and just like william schryver, you are attempting to weasel your way out of it.
No, I'm not trying to weasel my way out of anything, and I think it's quite ridiculous of you to compare my metaphor to the things Schryver said. In light of your proclivity for fallacious rhetoric and evasion of my real concerns, however, you're obviously in no mood to listen to reason.
maklelan wrote:They were speaking directly to their own members, though, not to the public or to the campaign. They didn't step foot into the ring, they just coached their guy from the sidelines. I see that as the main point of Holland's entire comment. You don't have the church's name on any literature being distributed or in any commercials. They were not formally involved as an institution in the campaign.
If the above statement is any indication, Mak, you have a real future in apostleship.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Kishkumen wrote:I don't see the shift from individual to church that maklelan sees here. He must be talking about the church the whole time, because there was never any threat that individual members of the LDS Church would in any way be disenfranchised. No one passed a law barring Mormons from going to the polls. No one hindered them from doing so in any way. Holland is using the word "disenfranchise" in much the same way corporations are represented as persons whose rights of speech were somehow hindered before Citizens United. In other words, to use disenfranchize in this sense is a stretch.
He was referring to the desire of the members (and others) to assert their right to determine the issue by vote rather than by judicial decree. He states, "all we asked in Proposition 8," not "all we asked during our involvement with Proposition 8." The reference is to the intention of the proposition itself. I really find it hard to believe that it is an honest and objective interpretation that insists Jeffrey R. Holland really meant to say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a corporation wanted to cast votes regarding Prop. 8.
maklelan wrote:He was referring to the desire of the members (and others) to assert their right to determine the issue by vote rather than by judicial decree. He states, "all we asked in Proposition 8," not "all we asked during our involvement with Proposition 8." The reference is to the intention of the proposition itself. I really find it hard to believe that it is an honest and objective interpretation that insists Jeffrey R. Holland really meant to say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a corporation wanted to cast votes regarding Prop. 8.
No, mak. He spoke about being disenfranchised. No individual member of the LDS Church was threatened with disenfranchisement. He has to be talking about the LDS Church as an institution having a right to its mobilization of members to take part in the vote. You are simply wrong.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
maklelan wrote:He was referring to the desire of the members (and others) to assert their right to determine the issue by vote rather than by judicial decree. He states, "all we asked in Proposition 8," not "all we asked during our involvement with Proposition 8." The reference is to the intention of the proposition itself.
This is utter and complete baloney! Here is what Holland said at the beginning of his statement (the capitalization reflects his tone used for emphasis):
All we asked in Proposition 8 was the right to exercise OUR vote. We just asked for religious privilege to cast a vote. We did not want to be disenfranchised.
See the bolded words, Mak. Holland is NOT talking about persons having the right to vote ... he's talking to "religious privilege." Citizens do NOT have the right to vote because of religion, but because of citizenship. Clearly, Holland is speaking to the Church's involvement in the passage of Prop. 8 (which is a freedom of speech issue, NOT the right to vote, which the Church never had).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
I’m not dodging the fact that there was . . . a fairly heavy price to pay – people being fired from their jobs, and people being blackballed in services that they had rendered and were no longer asked to render, and so forth, but that’s ok, that’s the price you pay for a lively democracy.
It's the mantle, not the man. Gotta keep reminding myself.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
Rollo Tomasi wrote:Holland is NOT talking about persons having the right to vote ... he's talking to "religious privilege." Citizens do NOT have the right to vote because of religion, but because of citizenship. Clearly, Holland is speaking to the Church's involvement in the passage of Prop. 8 (which is a freedom of speech issue, NOT the right to vote, which the Church never had).
Precisely.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Here's a neat video of the ABC interview of Apostles Ballard and Cook conducted during the Prop 8 backlash against the Church. It gets especially interesting at around the 7:50 mark: http://youtu.be/tFxIUxKhVBY
TrashcanMan79 wrote:Here's a neat video of the ABC interview of Apostles Ballard and Cook conducted during the Prop 8 backlash against the Church. It gets especially interesting at around the 7:50 mark: http://youtu.be/tFxIUxKhVBY
That was chilling. Some quotes from Elder Ballard when asked about Prop. 8:
When something needs to be done, we know how to do it.
and
When the leadership of the Church asks us to do something, we get it done.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
I think you're reading too much into Elder Holland's comments, but it is undeniable that the Brethren were very instrumental in mobilizing California Saints into action. I would have never lectured at UCLA Law on the Proposition, or canvassed or worked the phones on election night if I hadn't been asked to do so. I would have voted against the Proposition otherwise.
But my political beliefs on the subject were influenced by my church, much as the Catholics have quite often tried to influence politics through their members. I look to my Church as the arbiter of truth and morality and am willing to align my politics with it when that alignment seems needed.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Church using the pulpit to weigh in on issues of public morality.