A Scenario for our Male Apologists to Consider...

[_Drifting]

As I said, Mormons reject polygamy because it violates a personal ethic. Not because it is a false teaching according to an external religious benchmark.

H.

And as bcspace can testify, polygamy is still official doctrine...

[_consiglieri]

Consig, have you ever read 'Fear and Trembling' by Kierkegaard? Don't call on my reading of it as expert witness testimony, but Soren does rather interesting apologetic on Abraham.

H.

I have to admit I have read nothing by Kierkegaard, but it is a failing I should remedy. The piece you cite sounds like a good place to start.

Thanks for the reference!

--Consiglieri

[_madeleine]

But polygamy is not adultery because God has commanded it.

That is your belief. It isn't one I share.

The Old Testament sees men taking concubines with God's permission.

Polygamy in the Old Testament was a cultural practice which God allowed, He never commanded it and never "gave permission".

Jesus Christ, whom Christian follow as the Perfect Word of God, made it very clear, that marriage is between one man, and one woman.

God is not morally pragmatic.

God is the final moral authority. If he says something is correct, it is correct. Nephi murdered a man for a book, on God's order! Is murder immoral?

Yes murder is immoral. It saddens me when I see this put out as an argument. I hope you can pause for a moment and realize what it is you are believing.

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

Seriously you believe this?

A case can be made that murder is immoral according to Christian moral authority. But God commanded Laban's slaughter nonetheless. Does this make God immoral? Or do we reject murder and polygamy because *we* find it distasteful?

It is an immoral teaching, which is an extremely good indication it doesn't come from God.

As I said, Mormons reject polygamy because it violates a personal ethic. Not because it is a false teaching according to an external religious benchmark.

H.

Yes, I suppose Mormons would believe Jesus Christ is an external benchmark.

[_consiglieri]

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

A million Old Testament Israelites can't be wrong.

[_madeleine]

I suppose if you read every Old Testament story as every word conveying God's will.

Most of us, Christians and Jews, understand many (if not most) of the stories convey the silly failures of humans, including the ever-present idea that one's own will is the will of God, that one's fortunes are the will of God, that one's failures are the will of God, etc. are the will of God.

The stories in the Old Testament convey God's unending mercy in the face of human sin and fraility.

It is ok to stop and think about what a story is conveying. Even, if not especially when, a human character is claiming something is the will of God.

A good question is, "is it the will of God"?

What is the benchmark that would help us form an answer? The ten commandments and for a Christian, Jesus Christ.

Neither condone murder. One condemns it outright, the other tells us the greatest commandment is to love our neighbor, blessed are the meek, etc.

In that light, the Light of Christ, one can see God's mercy in all the Old Testament stories, including all relating to the Israelites.

God allows sin, and can and will use sin for His own purposes, but God will never command sin.

[_Chap]

I suppose if you read every Old Testament story as every word conveying God's will.

Most of us, Christians and Jews, understand many (if not most) of the stories convey the silly failures of humans, including the ever-present idea that one's own will is the will of God, that one's fortunes are the will of God, that one's failures are the will of God, etc. are the will of God.

The stories in the Old Testament convey God's unending mercy in the face of human sin and fraility.

It is ok to stop and think about what a story is conveying. Even, if not especially when, a human character is claiming something is the will of God.

A good question is, "is it the will of God"?

What is the benchmark that would help us from an answer? The ten commandments and for a Christian, Jesus Christ.

Neither condone murder. One condemns it outright, the other tells us the greatest commandment is to love our neighbor, blessed are the meek, etc.

So, you should be extremely wary should anyone come up to you and "command" you to murder in the name of God. Certainly, it is not a commandment of God. Never has been.

God allows sin, and can and will use sin for His own purposes, but God will never command sin.

That's a very nice religion you are describing there.

The problem is that you are doing pretty well the same kind of thing that Tobin tries to do for Mormonism: he reads what the the texts actually say, then says "Of course it doesn't mean that. It's childish to take such a simple literal-minded view of scripture".

Unfortunately, scripture does not have obvious fault lines in it of the kind you would need to allow the difficult bits to drop away.

Take for instance the Ten Commandments. You like them, especially the 'thou shalt not kill" bit. OK, Yahweh delivers those to Moses in Exodus 20. But then in Exodus 21 he continues his instructions, which include:

17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Tough love ...

Now in fact you have no more reason to disbelieve that instruction from Yahweh than you do the previous one. But you have a hot-line to God that tells you he meant the first, but not the second.

[_LDSToronto]

Madeleine,

Starting a new post is better than addressing your posts point-by-point because my thoughts are fragmented. Let me state my beliefs - I do not look to any god for mercy, redemption, salvation, morality, or direction. I suspect there is no god, am comfortable knowing I could be wrong, but have no reason to believe a god exists. Most gods I know of are arseholes anyways, including Christian God and Jesus Christ. Religion is an interesting thing to study, but in terms of a way to live one's life, offers little that can't be found inside oneself.

Once, I was Mormon. I believed in Mormon God, and Mormon Jesus, and believed that prophets had conversations with Mormon God and Mormon Jesus. When troubling ethical dilemmas came up, such as Nephi murdering Laban at God's command, I trusted that it must be the will of God, that his ways were higher than my ways, and I must simply accept his ways, for one day all will be revealed. Isaiah 55:8, D&C 101:34-36...

Over time, I discovered that prophets are wrong. Getting into how I came to this conclusion is not salient. What is relevant is that I did not need to compare Mormon teachings to general Christian teachings to determine if they were moral or immoral. I was able to reason things out.

Cherry-picking Mormon doctrines is inconsistent with the religion itself. Moroni 7:12-15 states:

"Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil"

D&C 18:34-36 states:

And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it. These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man; For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them; Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

and D&C 1:38 states:
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

The prophets speak with God's voice and authority, as do the canonized works, and both speak good works, enticing men to do good. Yet, when it comes to doctrine that is morally or socially reprehensible, like polygamy or murder, many Mormons want to blame the prophet - he's speaking as a man, he's wrong, he was a pervert who liked boinking lots of women...Yet, when it comes to doctrines that are socially or morally acceptable, such as abstinence from tobacco, the prophet is a hero - what a visionary, what a remarkable display of foresight, how could he have known that unless God told him?

Now, you may argue that murder and polygamy bring about evil works and entice no man to do good, while avoiding tobacco brings about good works, and good health. But, think again. Murdering Laban had an eternal purpose. Read 1 Nephi 4:12-13:

"And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands; Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Murder brought about a good work! Let's look at tobacco. 100 million people (as of 2003) were employed, worldwide, by the tobacco industry. Government revenue from tobacco taxation in the US was $15 billion in 2009, and in Canada, $7 billion in 2009. It could be argued that tobacco consumption brings about a good work and thus, prohibition of tobacco is an evil work.

Once a Mormon rejects one teaching from a prophet, that Mormon is in a bind - she as much as admits one or more of the following:

1. D&C 1:38 is wrong. A prophet does not speak with the voice and authority of God
2. God is wrong and is communicating immoral teachings to his prophet
3. A personal moral code is stronger than a religious moral code
4. Moroni 7:12-15 fails - some things that come from God are immoral

Accepting some doctrines and not others is equivalent to stating that revelation and prophecy, the cogworks of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do not function as described in scripture and promised by prophets. In fact, it is tantamount to inventing a personal religion.

I'm not defending revelation, prophecy, or LDS scripture. As I've pointed out, I believe these things to be bunkum. My argument is that one who claims belief in God and claims belief in scripture can only pick and choose which doctrines they accept and which they deny if they also accept that they are creating a new, personal religious movement that is no longer Mormon.

It is Mormonish.

H.

[_zeezrom]

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

How about the allowance of murder? Would you sit by the phone and not dial 911 if the Romans were about ready to nail your son on a cross?

[_LDSToronto]

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

How about the allowance of murder? Would you sit by the phone and not dial 911 if the Romans were about ready to nail your son on a cross?

There's the rub. I don't know what God would want me to believe, but he can be observed ordering killings, allowing killings, and doing the killing. Not sure if he wants me to do the same.

H.

[_madeleine]

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

How about the allowance of murder? Would you sit by the phone and not dial 911 if the Romans were about ready to nail your son on a cross?

We are not gods, and are not gods in training.

Jesus is God. God entered into creation in order to atone for our sins, and to restore what was lost by our first parents, Adam and Eve. We tie our suffering to His...pick up your cross and follow Him.

The suffering and death of Jesus is God's Mercy towards us. No greater love.