Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

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_RayAgostini

Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _RayAgostini »

Samantabhadra wrote:
As a sort of olive branch, I'll help you out a bit. One possible answer might be: in Alma 30 it says there was no law to punish people who didn't believe. But it didn't say there was no law to punish people who spoke out in their disbelief. There was no thoughtcrime, but there wasn't freedom of speech either.


7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.
8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.
9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him. (Alma 30)
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _Darth J »

2007:

Mister Scratch wrote: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2000

Many here no doubt remember the recent hot-potato, utterly insane and angry postings from the formerly calm poster known as Ray A. These days, Ray absolutely hates, with a white-hot passion, anything associated with ex-Mormonism. He hates it so much, in fact, that he puts it on a par with Nazism. There is an impending Mormon genocide on the horizon, he has intimated. So what happened to him? Rumor has it that someone on RfM slandered one of his daughters, saying that she "looks like a crack whore." Certainly, a nasty remark.

But that is not what is of interest in this story. The truth about Ray is that he is a flip-flopper, and in fact, there was a time when he absolutely hated the man he now calls his idol: Prof. Daniel C. Peterson. In an extremely fascinating ZLMB thread from a few years ago, Ray (who posted there as "Ray Ago"), threatened to "expose" DCP's personal nastiness and cruelty via a 15-page letter that DCP had written to Ray. The backstory to this is quite convoluted, but suffice it to say that Ray back then is almost a mirror image of who he is today. Get a load of this post, written some three or four years ago:

Ray Ago wrote:My enemies among the silly, braindead apologist Mormons will have all their words come back to haunt them. When I left the church in '87 I had to deal with scatterbrains like them all the time who were taunting me. Now, some 16 years later, those who haven't ended up on RFM squealing like castrated pigs have finally realised the futility of it all.

The point is, I am not trapped by a church like they are. I am not subject to spiritual slavery like they are. I don't have to offer blind obedience to ordinances and temples like they do.possible temple content rule violation In short, I don't have to be a 24 hour hypocrite as they are, by professing the name of Christ, then coming here and behaving like intellectual street thugs following Satan, quite contrary to everything their Book of Mormon teaches, but they would not realise that, because they are too thick for such thoughts to penetrate their legalistic, Pharisaic brains.

What I find quite bemusing is that I was chastised for merely mentioning the name of FT's God incarnate, the FARMS intellectual thug, who they call the "Great One". Jesus Christ is not the Great One in their minds, and it shows.

Just watch how many enemies they make for the church, then they will complain and blame "Satan".

This whole thread is an anomaly, but typical of what they have been doing since day one I arrived here. They taunt you, they tempt you, and when you "transgress" their sacred boundaries they accept no responsibility.

With people like Pent and FT in the church...does it really need enemies?
(emphasis added; mod italicization ibid)

Quite stunning! It seems that Ray's position---i.e., who he sides with---is contingent upon how people treat him. If an RfMer insults his daughter, he "crosses over" to the Mopologists' side. If DCP is mean to him, he flip-flops over to the critics' side. One has to wonder: does Ray actually care about truth in argumentation? Or, for him, is it all about who treats him nicely? Are his loyalties based on principles he adheres to? Or is if far more arbitrary than that? It seems likely that his recent "reconversion" to the Church of DCP may have had to do with some behind-the-scene buttkissing given to him by the Good Professor.

In any case, I felt that this was an extremely interesting look into the past.


2010:

Ray A wrote: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13596&hilit=winner

I find most of Scott's reasoning bizzare, to say the least. It's like they live in this Gilligan's Island cocoon, sheltered from the rest of the real world in a sort of "Jack and the Beanstalk" fantasy. 1 million light years away from reality. If Darth is in fact active, then his "anti-Mormon" criticisms hold more credibility for me than a whole choir of apologists singing "Let us all press on."

Mormon apologist are just so stoopid, with an absolute minimal appeal to intelligence, that I rank them with a lower IQ than Mickey Mouse. (Okay, I may be exaggerating).


2011:

RayAgostini wrote: You are just a rat dying in a spiritless desert, and hoping to gain converts to your unbelief misery.

Really, Darth, you're such a pathetic creature. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21515&start=252

Go back all you want, quote all you want, and keep establishing yourself as a little spiritually dead man with a pea brain.

You're such a fool. Really. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21515&start=273

You're such a fool, Darth. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21424&start=63

You're just like the rest of the anti-Mormons here.

And no, I'm not going to take you seriously.

You're just another MDB A-Hole. Just like ALL of the other A-holes who post here.

You want me to waste my time on people like you?

Get a [omitted per Terrestrial Forum rules] life. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21424&start=84

You really are such a fool, and you're an obsessed anti-Mormon. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21531&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=84


2013:

???
_RayAgostini

Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _RayAgostini »

"Spiritual slavery" in regard to the Church. Check the quote for yourself.

Quote me anywhere, where I describe a belief in the Book of Mormon as "spiritual slavery".
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _Darth J »

Samantabhadra wrote:
As a sort of olive branch, I'll help you out a bit. One possible answer might be: in Alma 30 it says there was no law to punish people who didn't believe. But it didn't say there was no law to punish people who spoke out in their disbelief. There was no thoughtcrime, but there wasn't freedom of speech either.


Freedom of belief doesn't mean a whole lot without freedom of expression, does it? And if all men were on equal grounds (verses 7 and 11), then why would the Christians who practiced the Law of Moses be able to proclaim their religion, but unbelievers would not be able to proclaim their unbelief?

But since we're talking about plot holes, maybe we could also discuss how the reason Korihor believed there was no God is that Satan appeared to him as an angel and told him there was no God.
_Darth J
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Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _Darth J »

RayAgostini wrote:"Spiritual slavery" in regard to the Church. Check the quote for yourself.

Quote me anywhere, where I describe a belief in the Book of Mormon as "spiritual slavery".


Mister Scratch wrote:It seems that Ray's position---i.e., who he sides with---is contingent upon how people treat him. If an RfMer insults his daughter, he "crosses over" to the Mopologists' side. If DCP is mean to him, he flip-flops over to the critics' side. One has to wonder: does Ray actually care about truth in argumentation? Or, for him, is it all about who treats him nicely? Are his loyalties based on principles he adheres to? Or is if far more arbitrary than that?
_RayAgostini

Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _RayAgostini »

You're not going to win this war of words, Darth. I'm just putting you on notice that when you're eating husks in your apostate contrition, I might offer you some help.

You're backing the losers.

Any thoughts about Jesus yet?
_RayAgostini

Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _RayAgostini »

Darth J wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:It seems that Ray's position---i.e., who he sides with---is contingent upon how people treat him. If an RfMer insults his daughter, he "crosses over" to the Mopologists' side. If DCP is mean to him, he flip-flops over to the critics' side. One has to wonder: does Ray actually care about truth in argumentation? Or, for him, is it all about who treats him nicely? Are his loyalties based on principles he adheres to? Or is if far more arbitrary than that?


That's a great proof of my denial of the Book of Mormon.

Keep it coming.
_Darth J
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Posts: 13392
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Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _Darth J »

RayAgostini wrote:You're not going to win this war of words, Darth. I'm just putting you on notice that when you're eating husks in your apostate contrition, I might offer you some help.

You're backing the losers.

Any thoughts about Jesus yet?


http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Face

Harvey Dent was Gotham City's heroic and kind-hearted district-attorney and one of Batman's strongest allies until Sal "Boss" Maroni threw acid in his face, hideously scarring him. It also fractured his mental state, causing him to become Two-Face, a schizoid criminal-mastermind obsessed with the number two. His former good luck charm, a "two-headed" silver dollar, was damaged on one side during the attack that ruined half his face, and Dent has seized on it as a reflection of his half-scarred visage. He flips it to decide the fates of his victims.

Image
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Darth Nihilus wrote:Freedom of belief doesn't mean a whole lot without freedom of expression, does it?


Of course not, but I'm trying to nudge the discussion along. It's at least theoretically plausible: the law is you can believe whatever you want to, but you cannot express that belief unless it accords with what the authorities want you to believe. It's sort of Orwellian, but then isn't everything Mormon sort of Orwellian?

And if all men were on equal grounds (verses 7 and 11), then why would the Christians who practiced the Law of Moses be able to proclaim their religion, but unbelievers would not be able to proclaim their unbelief?


What do you say, Ray? This is the crucial question, and Darth J's point rebuts the possibility I raised...
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
_RayAgostini

Re: Book of Mormon Contradiction: Freedom of Belief

Post by _RayAgostini »

Darth J wrote:http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Face

Harvey Dent was Gotham City's heroic and kind-hearted district-attorney and one of Batman's strongest allies until Sal "Boss" Maroni threw acid in his face, hideously scarring him. It also fractured his mental state, causing him to become Two-Face, a schizoid criminal-mastermind obsessed with the number two. His former good luck charm, a "two-headed" silver dollar, was damaged on one side during the attack that ruined half his face, and Dent has seized on it as a reflection of his half-scarred visage. He flips it to decide the fates of his victims.

Image


You don't believe in God or Jesus Christ.

You're just a fake person who doesn't want people to know your real position, which is that you're an atheist posing as some kind of believer.

You're as fake and fraudulent as they come, and all you believe in is materialism, and "what you can see". You're faithless, and view faith as "silly".
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