Understanding KEP and Book of Abraham issues

[_Bob Loblaw]

That's the killer for the whole catalyst theory in my opinion. If you believe that Joseph Smith didn't actually translate the Book of Abraham from the papyri then how do you know what to keep and what to throw out? The Holy Ghost? Yeah sorry, that one isn't working so well on me these days. That ghost dude must be seriously capricious because no one can get a consistent answer out of the guy.

From the church's perspective, Tobin is on thin ice because he is saying that he knows better than the Lord's anointed what is and is not scripture. I wonder what would happen if he wrote to President Packer and told him the church should remove the facsimiles because they're garbage.

[_Fence Sitter]

To get back to the thread at hand I think it might be interesting to create a list of issues associated with the Book of Abraham. Here are the ones I can think of:

1. Neither the text in the Book of Abraham nor the descriptions provided by Joseph Smith of the Facsimiles in the PoGP, nor contemporary descriptions given by witness as to the content of the papyri match what Egyptologist see in the extant pieces of papyri.
2. The reconstructions of the damaged portions of the Facsimiles#1 & #2 by Joseph Smith show he did not understand the Facsimiles.( I know his descriptions accomplish that all on their own anyways.)
3.The statements made by Joseph Smith and contemporaries that the papyri were actually written by Abraham and Joseph and dated from the time of Abraham and Joseph are shown to be false by the actual age (150 BCE) of the papyri.(Somehow most people don't mention that along with claiming that the papyri was an autograph of Abraham there are also numerous contemporary claims about the papyri being much older that it actually is.)
4. Anachronisms in the text itself such as Chaldeans, Potiphar and the Genesis text material.
5. Why God would reveal to Abraham a system of astronomy that is just wrong on all fronts.
6. The use of Pharaoh as a proper name.
7. Making up the missing hieratic characters in the lacuna on PSJ1.2 in Abraham 1:23-28 that was used for a century to defend the Church's racist stance on denying the blacks the priesthood until the "We just don't know why" came along.
8. Explaining why a 2000 year old heretofore unknown papyri document exceeding 10 feet in length about Abraham, a member of a race enslaved by the Egyptians, would be included in the funerary documents for a priest/prophet from an Egyptian cult in Thebes.
9. Explaining why that document has never been seen before Joseph Smith or since.
10. KEP-translation documents-cipher-reverse engineering attempt -Egyptian lexicon & counting- just what the hell is it and if Joseph Smith was so proud of it why has the Church tried so hard to keep it hidden?
11. If the papyri and mummies were actually that important why did Emma sell them to a traveling salesman within a few weeks of Lucy's death?
12. Why has no attempt been made to translate the Book of Joseph from extant pieces or at least an explanation proffered by believers that we have more than one missing scroll and both were really really long. (The answer to this one may be that even apologists may realize they have used up their missing scroll get out of jail free card. It really is too much of a coincidence that the missing scroll portions just happen to contain all of the Book of Abraham and all of the Book of Joseph and at the same time the contemporary descriptions of the scrolls match the extant pieces.)

[_Tobin]

Another big problem with tobin's argument about the facsimiles is that if he thinks the explanations for them should be thrown out because they are wrong, then why keep any of the text.

That's the killer for the whole catalyst theory in my opinion. If you believe that Joseph Smith didn't actually translate the Book of Abraham from the papyri then how do you know what to keep and what to throw out? The Holy Ghost? Yeah sorry, that one isn't working so well on me these days. That ghost dude must be seriously capricious because no one can get a consistent answer out of the guy.

Clearly you have no idea what you are looking at Cicero. The Book of Mormon is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read reformed Egyptian. The Book of Abraham is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read Egyptian Hieroglyphics. The test for the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham (and everything else Joseph Smith revealed) is to speak to God and find out if it was revealed by him or not. Sorry, but clearly you weren't paying attention when they talked to you about Moroni's promise and seeking and speaking with God.

[_just me]

I think Joseph Smith went to Hogwarts. That's where he learned all the cool crap.

[_Cicero]

Clearly you have no idea what you are looking at Cicero. The Book of Mormon is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read reformed Egyptian. The Book of Abraham is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read Egyptian Hieroglyphics. The test for the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham (and everything else Joseph Smith revealed) is to speak to God and find out if it was revealed by him or not. Sorry, but clearly you weren't paying attention when they talked to you about Moroni's promise and seeking and speaking with God.

I guess I also wasn't paying attention when I taught Moroni's promise myself hundreds of times as a missionary? One thing that is clear to me is that Tobin only makes sense to Tobin.

[_Tobin]

Clearly you have no idea what you are looking at Cicero. The Book of Mormon is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read reformed Egyptian. The Book of Abraham is a revealed text. Joseph Smith could NOT read Egyptian Hieroglyphics. The test for the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham (and everything else Joseph Smith revealed) is to speak to God and find out if it was revealed by him or not. Sorry, but clearly you weren't paying attention when they talked to you about Moroni's promise and seeking and speaking with God.

I guess I also wasn't paying attention when I taught Moroni's promise myself hundreds of times as a missionary? One thing that is clear to me is that Tobin only makes sense to Tobin.

Perhaps, but this is so simple it boggles me to see people make absurd assumptions like they do. Believe it when I tell you that you either get a personal witness of Jesus Christ or you will not be part of his kingdom. You will kick yourself out because you can not truly understand the gospel without that.

[_Darth J]

In summary:

1. The Book of Abraham purports to be a translation of the papyri Joseph Smith bought from Michael Chandler.
2. In July 1835, Joseph Smith wrote in his diary that, "with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the scrolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt – more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them."
3. #2 is printed in the History of the Church at 2:236.
4. Everything Joseph Smith, his scribes, his followers at the time, and the LDS Church today have said about the Book of Abraham is that it is a translation of the Chandler papyri.
5. Joseph Smith, his scribes, his followers at the time, and the LDS Church today have all claimed that the power of God allowed Joseph Smith to translate what was written on the Chandler papyri.
6. The claims of Joseph Smith, his scribes, his followers at the time, and the LDS Church today regarding the Book of Abraham are demonstrably false, because Egyptologists who can read Egyptian writing have determined that neither the Chandler papyri that remain nor the Egyptian facsimiles say what Joseph Smith claimed they said.
7. The Book of Abraham is also demonstrably false in substance, as it full of anachronisms and false statements about human history (Egypt was named after a woman named "Egyptus," etc., etc.).
8. Joseph Smith, his scribes, his followers at the time, and the LDS Church today teach that God has all knowledge and is full of truth. Therefore, the God to whom Joseph Smith, his scribes, his followers at the time, and the LDS Church today attribute the translation of the Book of Abraham would not have lied to Joseph Smith.
9. Based on the facts and Mormon teachings about the nature of God, it is demonstrable that the Book of Abraham is not a translation of ancient anything, and Joseph Smith's work product cannot be attributed to a God who has the attributes Mormons say he does.
10. According to Tobin, the Book of Abraham is still true in substance, even though its substance specifically refers to the facsimiles Joseph Smith purported to translate, and even though the substance of the Book of Abraham is demonstrably false (anachronisms and false statements about history).
11. According to Tobin, if you do not acknowledge that his wonderful Super Space Alien Star Trek God will tell you to believe things that are inconsistent with objective reality (e.g., the substance of the Book of Abraham is a true account of something that ever happened at any point in human history), then you are an idiot.
12. Joseph Smith was an idiot and a nincompoop who couldn't understand what God was revealing to him, but we should still believe he was a prophet because Tobin's Super Space Alien Star Trek God (not to be confused with "the voices in your head") says so.
13. Even though Joseph Smith could not understand the difference between random b.s. he was making up and revelations from God, Tobin can tell the difference.
14. We know #13 is true because Tobin says so.

[_Chap]

Darth J sums up the position quite effectively, or so it seems to me.

So far as I understand Tobin's position on such matters, the position articulated by Darth J is also the position that Tobin would think it quite reasonable to adopt - had Tobin not once been addressed in person by a deity. (Possibly in panda form).

Tobin, again if I understand him correctly, holds that if the deity/panda was to appear to Darth J and myself and address us on religious topics, we would immediately become of Tobin's mind on such matters. I beg to differ: for my part at least, if I had a vision of being addressed by a non-material entity of the rather menacing kind Tobin hints at having had, I would seek immediate medical treatment. If I was not sufficiently collected to do so, I am sure my family would ensure that I received the medication I needed.

[_Sethbag]

So when his scribe wrote that they were engaged in the work of translating the papyri, he misspoke?

Yes, the scribe had no idea what he was looking at and at that time, neither did Joseph Smith. They are pagan Egyptian papyri and have NOTHING to do with the Book of Abraham. And the facts back that up too.

Yes, so to you the natural explanation is that God must have been revealing the book to Joseph even though Joseph thought he was really translating the text on the scrolls, rather than that Joseph was making this up and telling people he was translating because it suited his needs and goals at the time?

You can see the ad hoc and unjustified nature of your explanation, right? What evidence have you got that direct revelation was the means of the Book of Abraham's "translation"?

[_Sethbag]

Then why did he say he knew exactly what was on the papyri?

Bravado. Joseph Smith often thought he knew more than he really did. After all, he was God's chosen prophet and could get rather full of himself.

Well on that we agree. A lot of women seem to have gotten rather full of him too.

The difference between us is that you've decided that he was really a true Prophet, so you come up with really dumb rationalizations to sideline the evidence so you can put forth your bald assertions and then back them up with nothing more than an appeal to authority (none other than God himself revealed this to me, when of course none of you were around to witness this - but trust me, this really happened!)