A tale of a church court.

[_Blixa]

That's a good point M&G.

It's such a heart rending story. Whatever one thinks of Eva's claims (ie., Sethbag's "fantasy land"), I think it's clear that these elders did not help her one whit.

Isn't it interesting to you that the elders treated her as if she were a sinner, when all she was really guilty of is imagining and discussing with people her own little spiritual world that wasn't 100% in line with the church's?

Like I've said already, I think she took the whole Holy Ghost/spirituality thing seriously, believed it as if it were real, and lived it in her own way. And for that she gets hauled into a church court with the guys whose church teaches Holy Ghost spirituality, gifts of the Spirit, real honest-to-gosh revelation, visitation by Jesus and Angels and whatnot.

All that spirituality stuff is well and good, so long as she toes the line and doesn't encroach on those types of experiences over which the men of the LDS church,and particularly the leadership, claim preeminence.

totally agree. Which makes it all the more tragic.

[_Sethbag]

A Mormon buy is given, with his ordination to the Aaronic Priesthood, the keys to the ministering of angels. See D&C 107:20. Now, go find a young teenaged Mormon Aaronic Priesthood holder and get him to start telling members in the ward how he is ministered to by and sees angels, and I guarantee you in not too long a time he'll end up in a room with a bunch of elders like this woman from the OP was. They talk a lot of crap in church, but if you take it seriously and really believe it's all real, you can get yourself in hot water fast.

[_mercyngrace]

A Mormon buy is given, with his ordination to the Aaronic Priesthood, the keys to the ministering of angels. See D&C 107:20. Now, go find a young teenaged Mormon Aaronic Priesthood holder and get him to start telling members in the ward how he is ministered to by and sees angels, and I guarantee you in not too long a time he'll end up in a room with a bunch of elders like this woman from the OP was. They talk a lot of crap in church, but if you take it seriously and really believe it's all real, you can get yourself in hot water fast.

I don't know.

In the last GC, Elder Scott spoke of dreams and communication with deceased loved ones. In other words, there is enough textual support for her experiences that she could have shared them without raising an eyebrow, if she'd shared in a culturally acceptable way.

When I read Eva's story, the thing that struck me was that much of it did not sound "Mormon". I'm not saying it's right, but people tend to be more accepting when what they hear is told in their own language. If Eva had couched her experience in statements by current church leaders, if she had described blessing her children as praying that through her faith they would be healed, etc, she might have had less trouble.

When I was a kid, a man showed up at church in a robe and sandals during F&T meeting. He walked up to the pulpit and started prophesying. He was escorted out by the bishopric and was screaming all the way down the aisle that we would probably cast out the risen Lord if He came among us. The thing is, his actual testimony wasn't that unusual. If he'd uttered it in a suit and with the right words, it would have been just as forgettable as everyone else's.

If I had to guess, I'd say what motivated Eva's PH leaders to call her in was her willingness to lay hands on her children and bless them. She running ahead of the herd on that particular issue...

[_why me]

A New Day. A blog post about a woman submitting to church discipline. I found it distressing.

I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced. Reading this part of the blog is a little strange:

http://awakeandarisetozion.blogspot.fi/ ... y.html?m=0

Here she is having a conversation with god with god responding back to her in conversation with words that she writes down in her blog. Interestingly, this kind of experience was shared by Saint Faustina who had a diary with conversations and thoughts with Christ complete with words in bold black representing what Christ said to her.

The following is part of a conversation I had with the Lord as I heard Him speak words to my heart and mind...


The past months have peeled pride from my spirit
To become a new Being through Christ the Lord
Whole days, my mind has been caught up in the contemplation of things eternal, spiritual
My eyes, de-scaled, opened
To comprehend
To see
The depth Of Forgiveness that He knows
Quickened by my need to pass over the stumbling block on the path
Mortal words cannot express the spiritual tongue
Of revelation encompassing my whole

Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Kneeling in prayer
With meditation
In my unlearned weakness
The child before the Father
Maker, the lover of my soul
Bless me with wisdom and healing in this path winnowed
To be at peace with the past of distress.

For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you; But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

But wait!
This too great a request, how can I be forgiver after what has been done in the closet of darkness?
The pain of days gone by is too much
My cross heavy to bear
I fall with the weight of burden I carry
How can You ask forgiveness of such depravity?

Are you, yourself not being self centered by thinking the injury requires no forgiveness? I have Atoned for you and everyone that ever lived, is living and will yet have life. Therefore is My absolute sacrifice not enough to cover even those of your enemies?
As I have Sacrificed
So ye also shall place an offering upon the altar

Lord change my heart, help me to see as You see and to love as You love

I AM the Mediator, your Advocate with Father
Your Redeemer
I defend thee at Fathers throne through my blood
I understand the exquisite depth of your pain
I will not ask of you to walk where I have not walked
I will not ask you to do as I have not myself done.
I trod the wine press alone
Yet I will always be with you
I AM forgiveness, Love and Charity, go and do as I do
What have I asked of thee?

To walk your footsteps
To become
Thy image engraven into my countenance
My desire thy will
Through faithful walk of Thy path

Forgive
As I freely forgive you
That thereby you may become a Savior on Mount Zion
You shall forgive and pray for those who have no light
That they may have vision and find their way to the Tree of Life and Throne
You become Mediator as I AM
For those do who not know my Name or have become blinded
Walking in noonday but not seeing
You advocate for them, to Me
My bowels are filled with compassion
I advocate for them and You to the Father
And you, moreover take upon My image and
Partake freely in My glory
Go therefore and honour your discipleship
By so doing you may reap rejoicing and rejoicings

My stumbling block removed
My cup runs over with compassion,
Where once there was no vision
Now I see with spiritual eyes
Through the veil
The Light of Christ
I weep with love
With concern
For my once enemy,
Exquisite joy
Comforting peace
I gird up my loins
Fresh courage take
Hold fast
With Christ beside
We walk the path winnowed

[_Jeneum]

A New Day. A blog post about a woman submitting to church discipline. I found it distressing.

I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced. Reading this part of the blog is a little strange:

I'm not sure how you think this woman is unbalanced.

My entire 26 years in the LDS church; the first 26 years of my life, I was told to seek an answer from the Lord. To seek His Face, and to have faith that He cared for me and my problems, no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential they looked to others. The Lord was to be my rock, my comforter, and the author of my salvation. The privilege of being a member of the LDS church, I was told, was the gift of the Holy Ghost: a direct line to God the Father and Jesus Christ, if and only if I stayed faithful.

So, here we have a woman who did nothing other than what her church leaders and the scriptures tell her to do. She gave her problems up to the Lord, seeking comfort from Him, asking Him to carry her burdens, and He did exactly that! She spoke with the Lord "as one speaketh with another" and He replied in kind: removing her pain and sorrow, and igniting within her the capacity to endure to the end.

Instead of rejoicing in this woman's faith, her church leaders attempt to tear it down. Instead of being moved by the Spirit by this woman's answer to her prayers, they cast the Spirit aside for what they THINK the Church Handbook of Instruction has to say. This woman did not get up in front of her congregation and prophesy instruction to the church...she followed "church protocol" and received instruction for HERSELF, and for HER FAMILY. She did nothing wrong. And yet she is punished for having a relationship with the Lord?

It seems to me like her church leaders are punishing this woman because they don't have the faith to receive what she received. They trust in the arm of flesh, while she trusted in the Lord.

If ever one needed more evidence that the LDS church does not care about the eternal progression of its members, this is it. The LDS church represents eternal stagnation: a program of procedures and assent to wicked men which totally removes the Lord from the picture in favor of institutional BS.

[_Gadianton]

So, here we have a woman who did nothing other than what her church leaders and the scriptures tell her to do...

But that's just it, this could be evidence that a person is unbalanced, or are we reading a different set of sciprtures? A really high-functioning person would laugh at the scriptures and probably not join the Church at all today, but in the cases it happens, learns the "language" as mercyngrace put it, so that the supernatural parts end up in a giant set of scare quotes and the rest conforms to custom.

I wager social skills explain everything. People with a lot of life bagage may have a hard time fitting into any group, and in the Church, that can just end up getting interpreted as apostasy, and from there it's easy to rid the group of someone who has a hard time socializing.

(on the other side of the coin are legitimate anti-socials who can fit in easy are but bat-shit crazy, i'm sure a few of these have led the LDS church)

[_Chap]

A New Day. A blog post about a woman submitting to church discipline. I found it distressing.

I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced. Reading this part of the blog is a little strange:

I'm not sure how you think this woman is unbalanced.

My entire 26 years in the LDS church; the first 26 years of my life, I was told to seek an answer from the Lord. To seek His Face, and to have faith that He cared for me and my problems, no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential they looked to others. The Lord was to be my rock, my comforter, and the author of my salvation. The privilege of being a member of the LDS church, I was told, was the gift of the Holy Ghost: a direct line to God the Father and Jesus Christ, if and only if I stayed faithful.

So, here we have a woman who did nothing other than what her church leaders and the scriptures tell her to do. She gave her problems up to the Lord, seeking comfort from Him, asking Him to carry her burdens, and He did exactly that! She spoke with the Lord "as one speaketh with another" and He replied in kind: removing her pain and sorrow, and igniting within her the capacity to endure to the end.

Instead of rejoicing in this woman's faith, her church leaders attempt to tear it down. Instead of being moved by the Spirit by this woman's answer to her prayers, they cast the Spirit aside for what they THINK the Church Handbook of Instruction has to say. This woman did not get up in front of her congregation and prophesy instruction to the church...she followed "church protocol" and received instruction for HERSELF, and for HER FAMILY. She did nothing wrong. And yet she is punished for having a relationship with the Lord?

It seems to me like her church leaders are punishing this woman because they don't have the faith to receive what she received. They trust in the arm of flesh, while she trusted in the Lord.

If ever one needed more evidence that the LDS church does not care about the eternal progression of its members, this is it. The LDS church represents eternal stagnation: a program of procedures and assent to wicked men which totally removes the Lord from the picture in favor of institutional BS.

Umm, 2 Timothy 3 does come to mind:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Of course it no doubt reads differently in the Joseph Smith inspired translation ... and what business is it of mine as an anonymous atheist anyway?

[_Gadianton]

I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced.

And you think the way to help people who aren't balanced is by ex'ing them, rather than trying to get them professional help?

By the way, why aren't the brethren more careful about who the allow to be baptised in the first place? Is it because they are thinking, "ah, we can use the person to get our stats inflated and if s/he ever really does cause a problem, kick to the curb later."

[_Kishkumen]

I can see clearly the problem. She seems a little unbalanced.

And you think the way to help people who aren't balanced is by ex'ing them, rather than trying to get them professional help?

By the way, why aren't the brethren more careful about who the allow to be baptised in the first place? Is it because they are thinking, "ah, we can use the person to get our stats inflated and if s/he ever really does cause a problem, kick to the curb later."

Why me is a paragon of LDS spirituality. He's just here to share his talent for Christlike understanding with us lesser lights. In this case, he clearly perceived that the author of these blog posts must be psychologically troubled because she talks about her spiritual feelings openly.

[_why me]

Why me is a paragon of LDS spirituality. He's just here to share his talent for Christlike understanding with us lesser lights. In this case, he clearly perceived that the author of these blog posts must be psychologically troubled because she talks about her spiritual feelings openly.

As I linked to earlier in this thread, she is having personal conversations with Christ and jotting down his replies to her. The whole tone of these conversations reminds of saint faustina who wrote a diary with thoughts and personal responses from Christ. Now could it be happening? Yes. But in this case I highly doubt it. I can see this woman in meetings raising her hand and reporting a personal conversation with Christ complete with his answered response. Not to mention other comments.

Something is not right here. But of course, the people here just can't see it because it is much better to see her as a victim. Fine.