Paying tithing online....SLC having a change of heart

[_Drifting]

Doesn't he have the spiritual discernment to distinguish whether or not the member in front of him is or is not telling the truth about such an important matter as tithing?

That's irrelevant to the question. The point of Tithing Settlement is to enable the member to declare his/her tithing status.

Why? God already knows what you paid and wether its a full tithe or not.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Why? God already knows what you paid and whether its a full tithe or not.

It's an effective way to make sure people pay what they owe in tithing. It's harder to shortchange God when you have to sit across a desk from the bishop and tell him whether you paid a full tithe or not.

[_Pahoran]

Right.... So let's say for example you paid $10k which shows up on your eoy report. Doesn't take a genius to extrapolate back to around 100k net and possibly even more gross.

Perhaps not, but it might take something close to a genius to remember all those details about every ward member when he only sees each printout once and speaks to each individual briefly, without discussing the details, and in the midst of a series of largely identical interviews.

Let's also say you live in a 800k house, and it easy to find comparables on tuilia. Again doesn't take a genius to extrapolate that to "more than likely underpaid your tithing" if the bishop thinks tithing is on some definition of net or gross vs surplus or increase.

And yet the established fact is that there is not even anything as unreliable as an anti-Mormon accusation to the effect that even one bishop has bothered to even try such a thing. And besides, there is such a thing as being "asset-rich and income-poor." It's not unheard of for someone to inherit the family home but still have to live on a wage.

And it takes even less effort to compare against what you paid in previous years.

Presuming that he still has access to that information. But once again, I point out:

There is not even anything as unreliable as an anti-Mormon accusation to the effect that even one bishop has bothered to even try such a thing.

If the Church wanted to do such a thing, why would there need to be Tithing Settlement meetings? Such comparisons are an accounting function that could be done far more efficiently without having face-to-face meetings. Indeed, why bother delegating it to the bishop at all, if that was what it was about?

I'd like to thank the thread originator for this thread. The more we explore this question, the more clear it becomes that Tithing, including Tithing Settlement, is much more of a spiritual matter than a financial one. If the Church was only interested in making money (and even our most virulent enemies agree that it knows how to do that) then a lot of what goes on around tithing actually makes the process less efficient.

In particular, the two things that people have complained about most bitterly in this thread -- Tithing Settlement and the non-publication of online tithe payment facilities -- cannot possibly be explained in terms of either revenue generation or "control."

Not by any reasonable people, anyhow.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_SteelHead]

There are all kinds of "unreliable" anti stories to the effect of bishops demanding proof of income to prove a full tithing. Anecdotal stories on the internet != true so:

Your mileage may vary.

To quote a few:

I was the guy who spoke in the Exmo conference a few years ago and began my topic (Lying for the Lord) by recounting how a stake president demanded that I bring in my paycheck stubs so he and my bishop could determine how much I should pay. They suspected that I was not paying enough. He did not ask to see my tax returns. His first counselor was my colleague in CES, and my other CES colleague was the first counselor in the student stake presidency; so the stake president knew first hand from those guys, and from the tithing lists that all stake presidents have how much we "made and paid." I guess he figured I should be paying a lot more, based on the donations of my two CES friends. I was less faithful and assume that I gave less (I paid on my net income).

At the time I was a full time Church Education System Insitute Director at the Pullman, Washington Institute of Religion, adjacent to Washington State University. I had been appointed to that position just a month or two before.

I protested that kind of treatment but to no avail, though I quoted the Handbook of Instructions to him (the dumbass stake president) about tithing. In fact, he added a new wrinkle; that from then on, when I drove on a weekend to visit my aged parents about 3 hours away and spent the weekend with them, I would be required to attend the full slate of meetings, at a ward nearby, and report back to him. He or the bishop would call the ward bishop of the ward I said I attended, to verify my attendance. He said this would restore trust and confidence in my character.

I walked out the door of my office after that meeting determined to quit the cult. And I did. My wife was delighted beyond anything you can imagine.
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ken

When I was LDS, I had a bishop ask to see my tax return information during tithing settlement. When I refused, he called my boss (also Mormon) and asked him how much I made to make sure I was paying a ‘full tithing’.

Shake down is accurate.

Re: Tithing Question
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:51 am
by jdog
I swear this is true:
I grew up in a ward with very little turnover-everybody knew each other. My father was a contractor, and when I got old enough, I went to work for him. My father had been a counselor in the bishopric a couple of times, and he was really good friends with the bishop of my ward. I sh*t you not, after tithing settlement one year, the bishop called my father (I was 30 years old at the time!), and asked him to print out one of my pay stubs so he could see if I really was a full tithe payer.

Re: Tithing Question
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:58 am
by gripper
It's interesting that you mentioned that your pay stub was reviewed. I mentioned this on another board and several TBM's stated that they "were not buying it". I know that this has happened on a number of occasions where individuals were asked to show their pay stubs. Also, did you know that if you work for the church, you MUST have a current temple recommend or you loose your job? I mentioned this once a while back and again, members were not aware of this. There have been individuals who have not been given their temple recommends by bishops who interpret tithing their own way and some individuals who worked for the church lost their jobs.

Again this proves nothing. But stories do exist to this effect, mostly on ex Mormon boards.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Presuming that he still has access to that information. But once again, I point out:

There is not even anything as unreliable as an anti-Mormon accusation to the effect that even one bishop has bothered to even try such a thing.

If the Church wanted to do such a thing, why would there need to be Tithing Settlement meetings? Such comparisons are an accounting function that could be done far more efficiently without having face-to-face meetings. Indeed, why bother delegating it to the bishop at all, if that was what it was about?

I'd like to thank the thread originator for this thread. The more we explore this question, the more clear it becomes that Tithing, including Tithing Settlement, is much more of a spiritual matter than a financial one. If the Church was only interested in making money (and even our most virulent enemies agree that it knows how to do that) then a lot of what goes on around tithing actually makes the process less efficient.

In particular, the two things that people have complained about most bitterly in this thread -- Tithing Settlement and the non-publication of online tithe payment facilities -- cannot possibly be explained in terms of either revenue generation or "control."

Not by any reasonable people, anyhow.

Regards,
Pahoran

You are an absolute joy to watch. I've never seen anyone so skillfully turn banal and self-evident statements into bitter anti-Mormon rantings.

In tithing, we have a system by which people donate a fixed percentage of their income, which is then handled and transferred by volunteers. Most reasonable people would say that's a pretty efficient way of raising money with little overheard. But not you. You claim that the only people would conclude that raising money is a primary goal of such a system are evil reprobates who hate God and all that is good in the world.

Then we have tithing settlement, whereby these donors meet with an authority figure to assure him, in front of God no less, that they are paying what they should. Most reasonable people would acknowledge that there is a strong element of control in that practice. But not you. You tell us that only virulent enemies of the church could reach such a hateful conclusion.

I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Perhaps you can claim that war does not involve violence, or the Olympics do not involve athletes.

[_cwald]

Presuming that he still has access to that information. But once again, I point out:

There is not even anything as unreliable as an anti-Mormon accusation to the effect that even one bishop has bothered to even try such a thing.

If the Church wanted to do such a thing, why would there need to be Tithing Settlement meetings? Such comparisons are an accounting function that could be done far more efficiently without having face-to-face meetings. Indeed, why bother delegating it to the bishop at all, if that was what it was about?

I'd like to thank the thread originator for this thread. The more we explore this question, the more clear it becomes that Tithing, including Tithing Settlement, is much more of a spiritual matter than a financial one. If the Church was only interested in making money (and even our most virulent enemies agree that it knows how to do that) then a lot of what goes on around tithing actually makes the process less efficient.

In particular, the two things that people have complained about most bitterly in this thread -- Tithing Settlement and the non-publication of online tithe payment facilities -- cannot possibly be explained in terms of either revenue generation or "control."

Not by any reasonable people, anyhow.

Regards,
Pahoran

You are an absolute joy to watch. I've never seen anyone so skillfully turn banal and self-evident statements into bitter anti-Mormon rantings.

I...I can't wait to see what you come up with next....

Yeah, unbelievable stuff.

True story.....My SP called SLC to check my tithing status and amounts...and they gave it to him. I was an EQP at the time. They used my tithing status as an excuse to rescind my TR and release me from all of my callings (four at the time - EQP, SSP, SS teacher and Asst. Scout Master.) This is when my family from Idaho colluded and called my SP in Oregon and accused me of "apostasy" and belonging to John Dehlins "apostate group," because I was posting on StayLDS.com."

Yeah, those apostates at StayLDS...nothing but wolves in sheep clothing...

Wow, that was life changing event.

[_Pahoran]

There are all kinds of "unreliable" anti stories to the effect of bishops demanding proof of income to prove a full tithing. Anecdotal stories on the internet != true so:

Your mileage may vary.

To quote a few:

Again this proves nothing. But stories do exist to this effect, mostly on ex Mormon boards.

Okay, I take back what I said. We do have something as unreliable as anti-Mormon accusations.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Pahoran]

You are an absolute joy to watch. I've never seen anyone so skillfully turn banal and self-evident statements into bitter anti-Mormon rantings.

Banal, I agree. Self-evident? Not so much.

Although to those who know nothing at all about astronomy, it is "self-evident" that the sun revolves around the earth. So maybe to those who assume everything revolves around them, these paranoid accusations are equally "self-evident."

In tithing, we have a system by which people donate a fixed percentage of their income, which is then handled and transferred by volunteers. Most reasonable people would say that's a pretty efficient way of raising money with little overheard. But not you. You claim that the only people would conclude that raising money is a primary goal of such a system are evil reprobates who hate God and all that is good in the world.

That's a straw man, an obvious and clearly deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

Of course tithing is a way of raising money. Nobody disputes that, and as a tithe payer I'm delighted that my money is going to the best of all possible causes.

But (and I see why you don't respond point-by-point as I do) I remind you of what I wrote:

If the Church was only interested in making money (and even our most virulent enemies agree that it knows how to do that) then a lot of what goes on around tithing actually makes the process less efficient.

Now, would you care to respond to what I actually said, instead of what you ASSume I said?

And this:

In particular, the two things that people have complained about most bitterly in this thread -- Tithing Settlement and the non-publication of online tithe payment facilities -- cannot possibly be explained in terms of either revenue generation or "control."

Note that, early in the thread, snarler #1 whinged long and loud that the Church made it harder for members to pay tithing online because "revenues must be down." I was commenting upon a claim that is absurd on its face -- making the donation process more time-consuming and less convenient is clearly not calculated to increase revenues. I pointed out that I have paid tithing exlusively online for two years, and my donation statements always show the online donations. The notion that bishops personally monitor individual tithe payments is a lunatic fringe fantasy, but even if it were true, online payments wouldn't hold them back.

Then we have tithing settlement, whereby these donors meet with an authority figure to assure him, in front of God no less, that they are paying what they should.

That doesn't resemble my experience of tithing settlment; in fact, I rather think that you know that you have misrepresented the facts. They meet with the bishop to (1) check whether the recorded amounts are correct, and (2) declare whether or not the amount represents a full tithe for the year. As to the first point, I have found errors in tithing settlement, and upon investigation, the record was corrected. As to the second, when for whatever reason I've told the bishop that the total was not a full tithe, he hasn't said anything about it, but simply made the notation without comment.

Most reasonable people would acknowledge that there is a strong element of control in that practice.

There are a couple of spelling mistakes in that, and an omission. Permit me to correct them for you.

Most completely uninformed people would assume, and all completely hostile ones would assert, that there is a strong element of control in that practice.

There; fixed.

But not you. You tell us that only virulent enemies of the church could reach such a hateful conclusion.

Only if they claim to know what they are talking about.

I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Perhaps you can claim that war does not involve violence, or the Olympics do not involve athletes.

Or that there are no anti-Mormons here in the sty?

Regards,
Pahoran

[_cafe crema]

That's irrelevant to the question. The point of Tithing Settlement is to enable the member to declare his/her tithing status.



Regards,
Pahoran

What is the point of declaring tithing status, and why in the world would it be important to someone to declare a tithing status?

[_SteelHead]

The best part about tithing settlement. You don't have to go. Don't sign up, skip it, you can still get a TR by answering the tithing question there (if you answer in the affirmative).

And now with the two year recommends you only have to pay every other year.