Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Saints

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_Flaming Meaux
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Flaming Meaux »

This was one of my favorite parts of the transcript:

Richard E. Turley, Jr. wrote:I came to the Church History Department not because I applied for the position, but because I was invited. And I left a very enjoyable occupation that would have made me a considerable amount of money in order to do that. . . . I was working for a Chicago-based law firm . . . and I left that early on in my career by invitation from the Church to come and do Church history. . . . I went to law in order to make a living for my family and I pursued history on the side. Then I had this invitation to come in and study the history of the Church. . . . I could at any time quit my current position, make more money, and go off on my own, okay? I'm not being held into my Church position because it's my livelihood. I have another profession, I have another livelihood I can go to and increase my income beyond what I get paid by the Church being a Church employee.


Interesting. Apparently Turley graduated from the J. Reuben Clark Law School in 1985, where he was an editor of the law review and where he was elected to the Order of the Coif. He also received the Hugh B. Brown Barrister's Award for top classroom performance. Clearly the makings for the start of a successful legal career.

So then presumably Turley studied for, took and passed the Utah bar examination (presumably sitting for the exam in July 1985?) and then continued on to work for (presumably the Utah office of) a Chicago-based law firm. Well, apparently he was hired as Assistant Managing Director of the Church History Department in January of 1986. Left the law early on in his career? I'll say. How quickly would he have possibly been granted admission to the bar following his examination? September of 1985? October? That's like three months as a lawyer before he hung it up.

So I'm a lawyer and I have my own views, but perhaps the other lawyers on the board can comment on what the U.S. legal market is currently like for someone who graduated law school in 1985, practiced for three months, and has not been actively involved in the practice of law since. Somehow, I don't think that such a person would even get considered to be a first-year associate at a major firm, let alone be brought into the private sector in the increasingly diminishing ranks of highly-paid equity partners. Maybe the market in Utah really is different--all you have to say is that you work for the church and want to go private, and firms will be falling all over themselves to hire you because of your incredible three months of experience that you gained 25 years ago.

How on earth could Turley really make it as a lawyer now? Maybe he was speaking of his other profession of being an author and writer. I didn't particularly like Victims, but if Deseret Book stands for anything, it stands for the proposition that if you are a Mormon, you can sell lots of crap to other Mormons just by virtue of once having a place in church leadership.

I just love it when people who have been career CES educators or have been suckling at the teet of the Church from the very beginning of their careers go on and on about how they aren't dependent on the church for a livelihood and could really make more money elsewhere.
_angsty
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _angsty »

Willy Law wrote:Listening to the fireside, I can't help but notice Turley has a haughty tone while addressing this group. I realize this sometimes happens when a native English speaker is addressing a non native English speaker in English, but it comes off as really condescending and douche baggy.


I agree. The transcript, while still pretty embarrassing, is a lot more palatable than the recording. There's something about Turley & Jensen's approach, content, and tone that sounds like they aren't anticipating or conducting an adult-level discussion.
_why me
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _why me »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Wrong again, why me.

Maybe you should leave the legal analysis to the experts.


I will record a presentation that you will give and post it on the web without your permission. Lets see what you will do.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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_why me
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _why me »

angsty wrote:
I agree. The transcript, while still pretty embarrassing, is a lot more palatable than the recording. There's something about Turley & Jensen's approach, content, and tone that sounds like they aren't anticipating or conducting an adult-level discussion.


I didn't see this at all. I thought that they handled it quite well considering a couple of the questioners were rather hostile and confrontational with them. What would you have them say? Were they there at that time in history? No. They just can give explanations and interpretations.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Equality
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Equality »

Flaming Meaux wrote:
So I'm a lawyer and I have my own views, but perhaps the other lawyers on the board can comment on what the U.S. legal market is currently like for someone who graduated law school in 1985, practiced for three months, and has not been actively involved in the practice of law since. Somehow, I don't think that such a person would even get considered to be a first-year associate at a major firm, let alone be brought into the private sector in the increasingly diminishing ranks of highly-paid equity partners. Maybe the market in Utah really is different--all you have to say is that you work for the church and want to go private, and firms will be falling all over themselves to hire you because of your incredible three months of experience that you gained 25 years ago.

How on earth could Turley really make it as a lawyer now?

I imagine that having worked for the church in a fairly high-profile position for almost thirty years would give him contacts that some Utah-based law firms would find extremely attractive. I don't doubt that he could land a cushy gig with, say, Kirton & McConkie. The church has its hand in so many economic pies in Utah that Turley's network of business connections would be a valuable commodity for some firms.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
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_Bazooka
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Bazooka »

why me wrote:What would you have them say? Were they there at that time in history? No. They just can give explanations and interpretations.


So, what were their explanations and interpretations on the points raised?

And actually, they were there as official representatives of the Church. So they should have been able to give the official explanation and interpretation.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Flaming Meaux wrote:So I'm a lawyer and I have my own views, but perhaps the other lawyers on the board can comment on what the U.S. legal market is currently like for someone who graduated law school in 1985, practiced for three months, and has not been actively involved in the practice of law since.


Not good. Not good at all.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

why me wrote:What would you have them say? Were they there at that time in history? No.

Umm, they are historians who do this for a living.

why me wrote:They just can give explanations and interpretations.

But they couldn't even do that. Their presentation was just awful, and they knew it.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Bazooka
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Bazooka »

why me wrote:
Bazooka wrote:
It was a public meeting which wasn't prefaced with asking the attendee's to sign a confidentiality agreement.
Nothing personal was discussed, just publicly available facts about the Church and leaders answering questions about them, what could be embarrassing about that....


That is not the issue.


I know you don't want it to be the issue, but it really is.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Bazooka
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Re: Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Sain

Post by _Bazooka »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
why me wrote:What would you have them say? Were they there at that time in history? No.

Umm, they are historians who do this for a living.

why me wrote:They just can give explanations and interpretations.

But they couldn't even do that. Their presentation was just awful, and they knew it.


Was the Holy Ghost inspiring their words or did He let them fly solo on this one?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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