A Reason For Faith: Problematical Apologetics

[_I have a question]

Mormons believe in a deity who operates according to natural law and creates using the materials at hand--e.g., the creation account in Abraham.

For the kind of omnipotence and creation ex nihilo that you're positing one would have to turn to traditional, non-Mormon Christianity.

Or one could turn to Dieter Uchtdorf.

Brothers and sisters, we are eternal beings, without beginning and without end. We have always existed.1 We are the literal spirit children of divine, immortal, and omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

https://www.LDS.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

Or Gospel topics...

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).

https://www.LDS.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

Even the hymn book gives us...

Upheld by my righteous, upheld by my righteous,
Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.

https://www.LDS.org/music/library/hymns ... g=eng&_r=1

I'm not convinced Mormonism teaches that God is confined to operating within natural laws at all.
But feel free to disengage. Maybe someone else can help me out?

[_Shulem]

Mormons believe in a deity who operates according to natural law and creates using the materials at hand--e.g., the creation account in Abraham.

The creation account of the Book of Abraham which was stolen from the Bible is just another fairy tale that has survived through generations of time and the Dark Ages.

The Abrahamic account of god telling him to murder his son is a horrific story -- pure evil, as is the Bible god. The Book of Abraham and the Explanations of the Facsimiles as translated by Joseph Smith is pure garbage.

How do you sleep at night?

No, don't answer me. I don't want to know. You have zero credibility in my eyes. You are lost.

[_sock puppet]

The kinderhook plates being a huge one. That Joseph could be deceived here is a hit against his claims of Prophet-hood. Why wouldn't one obviously seek communication with God about it when they claim to do so with so many far less trivial issues?

A fair question.

Using Bayesian reasoning, Joseph Smith being deceived by the Kinderhook plates would weigh in on the "against" side of the balance scale--i.e., it would tend to disconfirm his prophetic claims.

I don't think it weighs very strongly in that direction, and I didn't think so a non-Mormon either. I'm also not convinced that Joseph Smith completely bought into the Kinderhook plates. He made what appears to me to be a very casual comparison of them to the GAEL and then played up the character match. But he literally didn't buy the plates, when the chance was offered. This makes me wonder just how strongly he credited their authenticity.

Don

Don, thanks for proffering the responses you did upthread to my questions.

Here's a completely different one. Have you ever come across any indication as to the source of the characters that the fraudsters used in engraving on the Kinderhook Plates. I am aware of fn17 to this article (https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng), i.e.

17. It would also take a separate article to discuss the amazing array of theories that have been put forward to explain the source or nature of the characters on the Kinderhook plates. It has been suggested at various times that they came from a Chinese tea chest, from a piece of Chinese jade jewelry, from the Lo Lo script of Yunnan, China, from Egyptian hieroglyphics, and from scripts originating in Crete, Cyprus, Sinai, Canaan, Byblos, Phoenicia, and elsewhere, including the Anthon transcript (a theory that must be discounted because no published version of the Anthon transcript was available at that time). Some have suggested that the characters derived from nothing but a lively imagination. The arrangement of the characters and the paucity of repeated signs and sign clusters does not suggest any real language.

It's been a long time since I read up on your findings about the KP, about the connection of the first character of one plate and its JSjr 'translation' lining up with GAEL entry for a very similar character. So if you explained what you have concluded (if you have drawn any conclusions) in this regard, I'm sorry I don't remember. In any event, I would like to know where/how you think the fabricators got the characters for the KP.

[_grindael]

demise of the Adam-God theory

So was there something that Young said after 1873 where he denied it? Or were you speaking of it's demise in the Church. And I agree that 1847 is where Young began making mention of it. And yes, you can say that Smith taught things close to it and it was misinterpreted by Young. I don't see it that way, but I'm not concerned that we disagree about it. I also have research that has not been published anywhere. As for the rest, I do take what you say seriously, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse here. I've enjoyed our chat. If you are not holding your Adam God findings close to the vest, I'd be interested in anything you would care to share. You've shared some of your research on other things with me that I promised not to reveal, and I would do the same with this if required. It would surely help me understand it better, I'm sure.

It is always an honor to me that you take the time to you do to comment on things I write and none of it ever offends me. Thank you.

[Guest]

Sock,

One thing that is interesting is that I believe that the plates were divided into pictures and characters. There is a line drawn near the top of each one and the top of the plates had pictures. I believe that the character that Don disassembles was meant to be a ship. If they were looked at that way by Joseph, (as they were with others close to him) it is less likely (in my opinion, in my opinion, in my opinion) that he would be doing any disassembling of that character.



And I see a mistake I made, it should be four ROWS of characters. oops.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

At the time and place, the realistic options were those Sock and I already discussed.

The realistic option, for God Almighty, was to use a convicted charlatan, and then a tyrant?

I guess none of these people had the wherewithal to be God's restorative spokesperson?

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/18th-century.php

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/19th-century.php

Your position makes absolutely zero sense.

- Doc

[_grindael]

If you think about it, the Book of Abraham also had pictures and hieroglyphs, so this idea was not strange to Joseph. There is some connection to the Book of Abraham (Don cites all that evidence), but I believe that the characters at the bottom were viewed as being the same as the Book of Mormon characters. We both are doing papers on this, it will be interesting to see how each comes out in comparison with the other.

[_grindael]

Sock,

Joseph was showing some a "caractors" document in Nauvoo. It is not inconceivable that Fugate or Wiley went to Nauvoo and saw it. I consider it very unlikely, but the possibility is there. I know that George Moore saw it. It was after the KP were found, but Smith was on his way out of the house and stopped to talk to him and still showed him the document. If he did so when he was in a hurry, it must have been handy and he had no problems getting it out and showing it. Here's what Moore wrote in Dec. 1842:

Called on the “Prophet Jo Smith.” His carriage was at the door and he was about going away, but he received me very kindly, asked me into his house. I remained about 10 minutes. He was very communicative. We conversed about the golden plates, which he professes to have dug up and translated into the Book of Mormon. “Those plates are not now in this country,” he said–“they were exhibited to a few at first for the sake of obtaining their testimony–no others have ever seen them–and they will never again be exhibited.” He showed me some specimens of the hieroglyphics, such as, he says, were on the gold plates. . . . He expressed a desire to have a long conversation with me, but he had an engagement, and I was soon going away, so that we could not have much conversation. Our interview was short, but pleasant.

[_DonBradley]

Mormons believe in a deity who operates according to natural law and creates using the materials at hand--e.g., the creation account in Abraham.

For the kind of omnipotence and creation ex nihilo that you're positing one would have to turn to traditional, non-Mormon Christianity.

Or one could turn to Dieter Uchtdorf.

Brothers and sisters, we are eternal beings, without beginning and without end. We have always existed.1 We are the literal spirit children of divine, immortal, and omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

https://www.LDS.org/general-conference/ ... d?lang=eng

Or Gospel topics...

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).

https://www.LDS.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

Even the hymn book gives us...

Upheld by my righteous, upheld by my righteous,
Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.

https://www.LDS.org/music/library/hymns ... g=eng&_r=1

I'm not convinced Mormonism teaches that God is confined to operating within natural laws at all.
But feel free to disengage. Maybe someone else can help me out?

And Mormons teach a literal divine omnipotence, like other Christians do--that God's power is not conditioned by any other pre-existing realities, like say, intelligences or eternal matter? Nope. They don't!

[_DonBradley]

At the time and place, the realistic options were those Sock and I already discussed.

The realistic option, for God Almighty, was to use a convicted charlatan, and then a tyrant?

I guess none of these people had the wherewithal to be God's restorative spokesperson?

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/18th-century.php

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/19th-century.php

Your position makes absolutely zero sense.

- Doc

Ah, Doc. You have a good weekend too!

Don