Politics over Religion at MD&D

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Meadowchik »

Symmachus wrote:
Chap wrote:So far as I can see, Selek and Water Dog seem to be saying that they did not vote for Trump mainly because they thought he would make a good president. They did not vote for him mainly because they thought that the policies he intended to implement would have results tending to make their own lives more prosperous and more secure.

They voted for him because they believed that this would upset a group of people who for some reason they seem to dislike and resent intensely.

As a result, so long as enough people of the kind they dislike criticise Trump, they are satisfied. Trump does not have to do anything positive at all: he just has to go on being criticised by the kind of people Selek and Water Dog hate - and the more bitter the criticism, the more they are sure that Trump is doing a good job.

The problem is that Trump would, on this basis, retain approval from Selek and Water Dog even if he was to enact policies that were by any measure deleterious to the essential interests of the US. So long as the people they hate criticised Trump for those policies, they'd still be happy, whatever he did ...


I think you've mostly cracked it, Chap. Elections are always about stories, and there is a deep story (to borrow the phrase of an eminent sociologist who has studied this) among Trump supporters that informs everything around the discussion of their candidate: in their minds, they're hard-working, independent folk who don't depend on the government, which is run by corrupt elites; these hard-working people actually the ones who fund the government, and yet the elites are using those funds to help minority groups who want a fast track to the American dream—they just happen to be blacks, Hispanics, immigrants, homosexuals, and what have you. These hard-working people are in line waiting for the American dream, but the lines not moving for them because all these minorities keep cutting in and they are totally disrespectful to the hard-working people who have been waiting and doing what they're supposed to; one of minorities even got to Harvard somehow and became president! (there must be something fishy about that...how do we know he was even born here?)

Of course there are variations on this theme, but Trump remains popular among this group, which still constitutes a huge portion of the electorate, because he knows how to play to this story. There is no material reason why otherwise decent people—and imagine that Water Dog is a decent person—should support someone that is blatantly corrupt, obviously incompetent for the job, dangerously unstable, and demonstrably uninterested in helping those same supporters in anything beyond playing to their deep story. It works because that story is part of their identity. That story embedded in Water Dog's head has its own internal logic, and that is how he so predictably leaps to the conclusion that I am a socialist tenured professor who can't make it in the real world (ha! I wish! I'm from a working class background, I have no political power, own no assets or property, and I make barely enough to pay the bills only 9 months of the year; I am sure Water Dog is doing better than I ever will, and I don't even have a measly Visiting Assistant Professorship at Cassius University). Consequently, it is hostile to any fact that could undermine the core. It doesn't matter to Water Dog that his state probably depends on the federal government for about 30% of its budget—which helps funds transportation, towns, cities, healthcare, courts, education and all the other the other infrastructure needed to run a modern economy for people like Water Dog, who imagine that they make it in the real world all on their own. It's probably higher if it's a red state. In the final analysis, most Trump supporters are dependent on the redistributive power of the federal government.

As I told Water Dog—it seems to have gone right over his righteously indignant head—I don't know much about property rights behind the obvious truth that public is the antonym of private. Even such an unmistakable fact of language is just too much for him to handle. He can't even bring himself to address it, because that would open the possibility of questioning what Trump actions with Bears Ears and Escalante. It reminds me of the mentality of the classical Mormon apologetics.

That's because support for Trump is almost like a religion. It operates on the same psychological plane, and that's why Hilary is the Devil, even though she is just a private citizen now (...or is she? :surprised:). Mythless truth is unpleasant compared to the cosmic drama of watching Daddy Trump, with his A-Team tough guys Limbaugh and Hannity, punch those mean liberal elitists in the face. This isn't even really a partisan issue; Democrats like Joe Manchin can survive in Trump country because they don't really factor in to the drama. Like a religious myth, watching Trump play to their story makes his supporters feel good because it makes them feel strong and protected from forces they can't control or facts they don't want to face. They don't want to hear that they're weak and dependent because it undermines their self-story of independence. Instead, they turn the bureaucrats who try to serve their needs—the educated people who work in the various layers of government—into the agents of elite masters who impose dependence on them, all while helping the undeserving (who just happen to be blacks, Hispanics, and homosexuals...). They don't want to hear that Trump couldn't give two good god damns about making their lives materially better because he makes them feel better. At the end of the day, feeling better off Trump's being better off.

But it's pretty obvious how fragile his supporters are as soon as you pop the narrative: these people are as hypersensitive as a gender-fluid vegan frantically looking for a non-binary restroom at the Golden Corral. As is the case with religious people, Trump supporters like Water Dog want us all to respect to their cherished myths, and they get really angry the second you don't grant them the respect they feel they deserve. It's a dangerous problem, because while religion has a socially sanctioned space within which it is immune to criticism, political views in a democratic society are supposed to scrutinized, debated, and even attacked. Emotional narratives have always had a part to play in American politics, so that's not new; what is new is that these narratives are becoming the driving factor, even the only factor.

When Water Dog jumps on to the thread only to say that he won't engage in a discussion about policy because the line of the thread feels unpleasant to him (which is what he means by lobbing charges of elitism), what he is basically implying is two things: 1) this thread is not a space where he feels his views will remain safe from criticism, and 2) those views deserve such a safe place. This is becoming an accepted premise for politics in America, which means in the end that there will be no safe space for reason itself.


As a conservative, it has helped me to understand what it takes to make a pencil. The extreme right-wing fantasy is to live off the grid, living off the land and with only minimal if any outside intervention. Yet the reality is that humans have not done that historically. They have always needed a network of other humans to survive and persist.
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Maksutov »

Water Dog wrote:
Symmachus wrote:Water Dog, it seemed you engaged Kish without really having a command of the issue. Understanding something and articulating it well are signs of elitism only to the proudly ignorant. It is truly deplorable that grasping an issue is taken as a sign of elitism; it's a form of cultural rot that is turning us all into basket cases.

I have studied the issue of private property rights for quite some time. Your "command" of the issue amounts to garden variety punk activist socialism and is too immature to be worth engaging. I doubt you could last more than about five minutes in an actual debate. Which most likely correlates with how long you'd make it in the real world, outside the sheltered context of govt subsidized academia and tenure. If my revulsion scores as an intellectual victory to you that only serves to validate that my decision to avoid this cesspool was the right one. All the best.


That's a cop out, Dog. You're better than this...you have admitted a desire for education in science without demonizing it as elitist. There are other areas of knowledge and discourse, too. Some liberals certainly are dogmatic elitists, just as some conservatives really are Luddite reactionaries, but that leaves a lot of area to still contend with. Dissing people over "govt subsidized academia and tenure" is especially disappointing as a weak, biased ad hominem. If you take issue with their ideas, fine, but trying to dismiss academia because you disagree with it is, well, pathetic. I will happily join you in positions like Sokal's, in criticizing academic irrationality and dogmatism, but I think you're reacting defensively rather than as thoughtfully as you're capable of.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Kishkumen »

Meadowchik wrote:As a conservative, it has helped me to understand what it takes to make a pencil. The extreme right-wing fantasy is to live off the grid, living off the land and with only minimal if any outside intervention. Yet the reality is that humans have not done that historically. They have always needed a network of other humans to survive and persist.


Indeed! Yes, be a conservative. Cool. But don't be a libertarian fantasist. Galt's Gulch was a failure. Extreme libertarianism will always fail, for the reason you succinctly state. Cooperation was the key to human success, not the individual genius of the lone person on an island.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Johannes
_Emeritus
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:50 am

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Johannes »

There is a lot that I could say on this thread about the utter moral bankruptcy of Christians who support Donald Trump, but I'd like to make a different point.

This was a very revealing passage:

A fellow quoted by Water Dog wrote:He has done an incredible job of doing exactly what I had hoped he would do in the off chance he defeated that naggy harridan and her corps of gender indeterminate hipsters, coastal snobs, race hustlers, aspiring libfascists, media scum, and wussy pseudo-conservatives terrified that a Hillary loss would mean people might expect them to do more than wear bow ties and go on NPR to prattle about Burke in their high-pitched, nasal voices.


No-one has yet commented that the dominant theme in this list of self-chosen enemies is gender. A "naggy harridan" is a woman who isn't sweet and subservient enough. We all hate hipsters for obvious reasons, but this guy revealingly singles out their "gender indetermina[cy]". Then he ends the enemies list with a group of people who are "wussy" (effeminate), have read a book or two (effeminate) and have high-pitched voices (effeminate). Sure, he mentions other groups too - races comes up, as do the coastal elites - but gender is the recurring theme. His troll nickname for Clinton ("von Pantsuit") is out of the same stable.

Plainly, this is a person who longs for a time when men were men and women were women. Maybe the missionaries should visit him with a copy of the Proclamation on the Family.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Kishkumen »

Good point, Johannes. I am so accustomed to reading pseudo-conservative gender anxiety that it very nearly washes over me without my notice.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gray Ghost
_Emeritus
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Gray Ghost »

Trump is a cult leader in the most literal sense of the word. No surprise that his followers prioritize the cult leader's dogma over their own religious orthodoxy - there's not even a contest.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gray Ghost wrote:Trump is a cult leader in the most literal sense of the word. No surprise that his followers prioritize the cult leader's dogma over their own religious orthodoxy - there's not even a contest.


He embodies all of the ugliest things about a nation in despair and channels them into screwing over the very people who follow him. In that he is worse than a cult leader. He may be a cult leader in his followers’ minds, but he is an anti-cult leader inasmuch as he doesn’t even bother or pretend to bother with people’s misguided aspirations. His is a unique cult of self-denigration. Trump gives people permission to be the very worst people they can be.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Choyo Chagas
_Emeritus
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:49 am

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

Kishkumen wrote:
Gray Ghost wrote:Trump is a cult leader in the most literal sense of the word. No surprise that his followers prioritize the cult leader's dogma over their own religious orthodoxy - there's not even a contest.
He embodies all of the ugliest things about a nation in despair and channels them into screwing over the very people who follow him. In that he is worse than a cult leader. He may be a cult leader in his followers’ minds, but he is an anti-cult leader inasmuch as he doesn’t even bother or pretend to bother with people’s misguided aspirations. His is a unique cult of self-denigration. Trump gives people permission to be the very worst people they can be.

things will be better, when no other thing is worse.

gwb?
he was one example, he was the other thing.
maybe the clown, bajazzo...
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GubJVThmZs4.
Pagliacci (Mario Lanza) 3.03

obama? he could have been the light at the end of the tunnel.
instead, he was only an intermezzo...
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIQ2D6AIys8.
(Intermezzo from Cavalleria Rusticana, Pietro Mascagni) 3:18

then Trump
no music found

hhmm... maybe
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvezKgSIJiM.
FAUST - Walpurgis Night (Maximova-Yagoudin-Vlasov, 1974), 9.11 ***

please don't grudge the time; that russians didn't influenced the votes
since 1974

they are influencing all of us by their ballet dancers
at least most of us
or a few to us...

***
most of the women are grabbed by their pussy; it is part of the dance - unfortunately, the center of gravity of a human body is there around
... and Trump would like it
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
_DoubtingThomas
_Emeritus
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

DoubtingThomas wrote:What an imbecile, there are probably enough Mormons in Alabama to make a difference in a tight race. http://www.pewforum.org/religious-lands ... e/alabama/

Moore lost by 1%.
_Uncle Ed
_Emeritus
Posts: 794
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:47 am

Re: Politics over Religion at MD&D

Post by _Uncle Ed »

Kishkumen wrote:
Gray Ghost wrote:Trump is a cult leader in the most literal sense of the word. No surprise that his followers prioritize the cult leader's dogma over their own religious orthodoxy - there's not even a contest.


He embodies all of the ugliest things about a nation in despair and channels them into screwing over the very people who follow him. In that he is worse than a cult leader. He may be a cult leader in his followers’ minds, but he is an anti-cult leader inasmuch as he doesn’t even bother or pretend to bother with people’s misguided aspirations. His is a unique cult of self-denigration. Trump gives people permission to be the very worst people they can be.

This probably belongs in "spirit paradise" now.

However, The Donald is none of the things that you describe. Where you see a narcissistic playboy and worse, I see a flawed, coarse but genuine altruist. Being self-serving does not form a mutually exclusive or negating facet. He's complex, experienced and OLD. He acts like an immature boy. He has thin skin. Yet, paradoxically, he is tough as nails and doesn't really give a damn what people think. Habitually he will react instantly to any slight or insult and give back as good as he gets. He'll take on the world of insults and slander and throw it right back in their faces. He'll make threats, and make good on some few of them when he chooses to.

He's the opposite of a cult leader. He doesn't really give a damn about anybody beyond an ideal to be a great changer of the status quo, to be remembered as the ONE who could make changes, real and lasting. And it so happens that many of his ideas for change are all about making things better/great again. They resonate with Americans who want to be great, in a great Nation with the greatest lifestyle of individual freedom and affluence, etc. He wants to defend these ideals and changes, with the sword where necessary. Of course, many Americans are going to flock to this banner-raising "chief magistrate".

And of course, all such are going to continually be vilified for being followers and supporters of such a paragon of conflicting images. So far, the "ride" is as bumpy and fun(funny) as I said it would be over a year ago.
A man should never step a foot into the field,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need arms,
Or what menace meet on the road. - Hávamál 38

Man's joy is in Man. - Hávamál 47
Post Reply