Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

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_Gadianton
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I'm trying to understand this thread. SPG, what is it that you're driving at? You seem to be posting contradicting statements.

- Doc


One major strand of SPG's thought is that critics dismiss belief to their own peril. He maintains that belief can conquer the world, just like the prog death band Arch Enemy says in that song The World is Yours. Since they are Swedish, they have the roots Euro metal bands do reacting against in part against Christianity as a totalizing power structure, but yet maintain a pre-Christian religious and supernatural worldview, one that is tribal and strong, forged in harsh winters, and celebrates personal power and ambition with little regard for those outside the tribe. Lyrics and real life are too different things (perhaps not to SPG), but it's well known that these bands with roots in Black Metal take their messages seriously, and are known to be critical of American metal bands that are all show and don't live the message. So imagine the Gods of yore fighting alongside with those who believe in them to progress the believer even unto the ends of conquering the world.

Well, I think we'd all agree that belief can be a powerful thing. Belief + ignorance is perhaps the greatest weapon human beings have ever devised, but SPG won't go the obvious route, and insists that victory in battle is real -- the result of supernatural forces that are real helping the believer, but perhaps that world is incommensurable with our way of understand the world. We have to say that both worlds are true relative to our understanding.

There's some major equivocation going on here. A lot of the debate has been over belief as a mental representation of reality, but that has nothing to do with belief as in the will-to-power. Believing you can climb a big mountain and believing the mountain is made out of Swiss cheese aren't the same thing. And so SPG needs to disentangle those two ideas and decide upon what he's actually saying. If he's saying will-to-power, then we can take the next step of analyzing the mechanisms of how that power is instantiated, but steer clear of confusing that with talk about belief as representation. So others in this thread are rightfully calling BS on his absurd theory of representation, because SPG keeps confusing himself and bringing up examples of it, but it's obvious to me that SPG isn't really interested in that per se but he can't dig himself out of the hole to get to the proper conversation of belief as will-to-power.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_SPG
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _SPG »

Gadianton wrote:So others in this thread are rightfully calling BS on his absurd theory of representation, because SPG keeps confusing himself and bringing up examples of it, but it's obvious to me that SPG isn't really interested in that per se but he can't dig himself out of the hole to get to the proper conversation of belief as will-to-power.


You labeled me as confused. I admit I have confusion. And I understand it as confusion we all have. I acknowledge that I don't know.

You guys, you think you know.
_honorentheos
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _honorentheos »

SPG wrote:
Gadianton wrote:So others in this thread are rightfully calling BS on his absurd theory of representation, because SPG keeps confusing himself and bringing up examples of it, but it's obvious to me that SPG isn't really interested in that per se but he can't dig himself out of the hole to get to the proper conversation of belief as will-to-power.


You labeled me as confused. I admit I have confusion. And I understand it as confusion we all have. I acknowledge that I don't know.

You guys, you think you know.

Ummm. Isn't this just you saying you are the one who actually knows and everyone else doesn't? The manner in which you claim to "not know" is not actually behaving skeptically. It's the line you draw to define who REALLY, ACTUALLY knows.

Something to think about. And yes, Socrates was full of crap when he said it, too.

Anyway, may I ask about this?

It's my own inability to manage actual trauma. Sort of has me on places like this BSing with people.


Something serious going on that the board is helping you escape from in some way?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Gad,

You have my humble request to incorporate Black Death Metal into any future metaphors you feel are necessary to the conversation. That was awesome.

SPG,

You might just want to go with this universe is part of an A.I. simulation. You have a lot of thoughts that can be resolved within this belief avenue, because why not?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Gadianton
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _Gadianton »

You guys, you think you know.

while i'm sympathetic to H's point that by saying this you're actually saying you think you know, and this is your way of advancing your own superiority over us, I'm more concerned about the fact it isn't clear what it is you think you don't know that we think we know.

We think we know what? I think I know the difference between two ways the word "belief" can be used that make a conversation confusing when speaking about the two as if they're the same. That doesn't mean I think I have all the answers to life or know the fundamental nature of reality. Again back to H: I'll bet I think I know less about the fundamental nature of reality than you think you know about it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_SPG
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _SPG »

Doctor wrote:
SPG,

You might just want to go with this universe is part of an A.I. simulation. You have a lot of thoughts that can be resolved within this belief avenue, because why not?

- Doc

The A.I. idea has some applicable options for me. I believe there is consciousness behind the scenes. But I don't think it is like we are in a server.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

SPG wrote:
Doctor wrote:
SPG,

You might just want to go with this universe is part of an A.I. simulation. You have a lot of thoughts that can be resolved within this belief avenue, because why not?

- Doc

The A.I. idea has some applicable options for me. I believe there is consciousness behind the scenes. But I don't think it is like we are in a server.


Well, according to Kurzgesagt we'd be on a black hole and the universe, like you alluded to, is a projection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlTKTTt47WE

Note: If that video doesn't address the black-hole-universe-projection idea it's in one of their productions, but I don't recall which one.

eta: I think I found it:

https://youtu.be/yWO-cvGETRQ?t=469

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_SPG
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:47 am

Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _SPG »

Gadianton wrote:
You guys, you think you know.

while i'm sympathetic to H's point that by saying this you're actually saying you think you know, and this is your way of advancing your own superiority over us, I'm more concerned about the fact it isn't clear what it is you think you don't know that we think we know.

We think we know what? I think I know the difference between two ways the word "belief" can be used that make a conversation confusing when speaking about the two as if they're the same. That doesn't mean I think I have all the answers to life or know the fundamental nature of reality. Again back to H: I'll bet I think I know less about the fundamental nature of reality than you think you know about it.


honorentheos wrote:Ummm. Isn't this just you saying you are the one who actually knows and everyone else doesn't? The manner in which you claim to "not know" is not actually behaving skeptically. It's the line you draw to define who REALLY, ACTUALLY knows.


I get where you two are coming from. Because I express my opinion with a certain mysterious and manly confidence that I've either an asshole or ego maniac that "thinks he is right and everyone is wrong."

I sometimes call people "wrong" because I've experienced myself being wrong with some of the same ideas. Sort of like, "here is a quote from Google so your opinion is invalid." Obviously, if I submitted to Google every time it contradicted me, I would be more like you guys. (Not that being like you is all bad, just not for me.)

But no, you're wrong, I don't think I know. I have quotes I've made up, "I am closer to truth through the admission of my ignorance then anyone else is by claiming to know something." This isn't to say I'm smart, it really about how none of us know as much as think we do. That if we likened ourselves to cavemen, while it looks we have come a long way, on the scale of dead to actually knowing something. . . we are still cavemen.

When you look at something from a different perspective, you get different details.

I am probably not as "well read" as some of the other masters here, but I'm sure I have read materials you haven't. I might not have had as much experience as you guys, but I have experiences you haven't. I might not have as much experience the church as you guys, but I've seen aspects of it that you haven't.

My message here, (as someone else was asking me) is that faith is important. That holding strong to faith is sometimes important, even when we don't know. Because, once you start to back off your values, because someone else has pointed out that you don't know, you weaken us all. If you give up love, family, and community because you don't know if their core belief system is true/valid/factual/pure, you lose. There is a lot more "truth" in this world then can be written in a book or reported by a google search.

So anyway, I only thing I calm to know in these discussions is 'nothing.' However, when talking to my 11 year old, I sometimes claim to know something. And she can point how there are several things the COULD have happened and that I shouldn't over react unless I know for sure. I know, I've created a monster.
_SteelHead
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _SteelHead »

Some one is confusing "mysterious manly confidence" with "naked hubris filled speculative ramblings".

You assert lots, evidence nothing.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Lemmie
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Re: Feeling Stupid. . . . . .

Post by _Lemmie »

spg wrote:My message here, (as someone else was asking me) is that faith is important. That holding strong to faith is sometimes important, even when we don't know. Because, once you start to back off your values, because someone else has pointed out that you don't know, you weaken us all. If you give up love, family, and community because you don't know if their core belief system is true/valid/factual/pure, you lose.

So, when you assume people are not 'holding strong to faith,' you associate this with starting to 'back off [one's] values'??

And you also assume that people are giving up 'love, family, and community' BECAUSE people don't know if their 'core belief system is true/valid/factual/pure' ???

What an insulting crock of crap.

And last, you are here to deliver a message? Why? Never mind, head on up to the Celestial forum and preach away.
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