I also still wonder if he truly felt the story in his head was scripture. It wasn't trick per se, but just him thinking he really was inspired by God and the words that came out of him, inspired-feeling as they were, were, as he saw it, God dictating scripture through him. There just happened to be people who felt impressed he was inspired. The whole magic trick stuff just feels way too sophisticated and elaborate. The level of scheming, plotting and then maintaining and covering it up in front of dozens of different people just feels impossible.
Hold on there.
Did Smith also truly feel the gold plates sitting under the cloth on the table were also real?
Did Smith really feel inspired by God to tell people he had real gold plates?
It's obvious that the conman was scheming and plotting his way through Mormonism and that included hat tricks and fake gold plates to fool those whom he specially selected to fool. Smith was cunning and sneaky all the way.
Did Smith also truly feel the gold plates sitting under the cloth on the table were also real?
Did Smith really feel inspired by God to tell people he had real gold plates?
It's obvious that the conman was scheming and plotting his way through Mormonism and that included hat tricks and fake gold plates to fool those whom he specially selected to fool. Smith was cunning and sneaky all the way.
Another fair point. I think there are possibilities here. He could have felt God told him he had to fashion plates. He could have fashioned them and convinced himself they were ancient full of scripture. And since the plates weren't used, it hardly seems all that material.
The added ploy was him pulling off the 3 witnesses trick. If he was not convinced it was scripture how did he get others to think God was telling them the plates were ancient and contained the words of scripture? In a sense people are convinced by sheer peer pressure if nothing else that God speaks to them. They close their eyes and strain real hard and see tons of things, and imagine many things. So it's possible. But if Joseph isn't convinced and is just lying himself, it seems harder to pull off.
The big problem with all of this is there are far too many questions no matter how you see it. But again, the magic tricks and being able to hide it from everyone, employing trick after trick for the rest of his life, feels impossible.
If he had others in on it, then why the need for a trick?
I don't think the original idea looked anything like the final outcome. I agree with Physics Guy that the one constant was the goal of profiting off the enterprise, and this required agility in adapting to changing circumstances. Once Harris became the most obvious potential source for profiting off the gold Bible, most events in the translation hoax seem to be aimed at accomplishing that purpose. I don't think there is any reason to believe Smith, Cowdery, or David Whitmer were attempting to start a church originally. It seems like some of the earliest Revelations were designed to keep Smith constrained, though, so maybe he was more eager to push that aspect of it. Who knows. Remember, he tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in 1830 to get money, and there seem to be money motives throughout Smith's life.
Had he accomplished producing a book that actually described the Americas 2,000 years ago I think there'd be more reason to invest in attempting to explain how the book came to be. As it stands, I personally see it as the result of good luck and cunning that happened to survive to today where so many others failed. But it's clearly fiction. In evolutionary terms, it happened to occupy or create a niche that allowed the cultural ideas of Mormonism to grow and kinda flourish...in it's niche. But that's all it is. Like being able to wonder if humankind has some special place in the universe because we happen to exist and have the capacity to be aware of it IS special, but that doesn't demand we actually do have a unique place in an otherwise indifferent universe. Conditions just happen to be such we can speculated on it and there is fertile ground for feeding that speculation.
I really wish that Dan Vogel would make an appearance on this thread and comment or start his own thread. We need him more than ever. He has already laid the ground work and through his passion and research he is the one to offer insight and start turning the key RFM so wonderfully stumbled upon. There is a whole new field now in which to move the puzzle pieces in order to form the picture of what really happened. Dan Vogel is the Anointed One -- he is the Chosen One to figure this out.
We know that Joseph Smith didn't translate golden plates while having his head in a hat with a magic rock. That did not happen anymore than Santa Clause rides down from the North Pole and going down millions of chimneys in a single night. There is no such thing as Santa Clause and there is no such thing as golden plates or the angel Moroni. It's all a tale!
I have to wonder if Joseph Smith had his so-called golden plates long before the translation process took place. What about father Smith, could he have crafted something to appear ancient in order to provide a prop for a future story or book his family was someday wanting to produce? Joseph had been telling tales about the native Indians for years and the Smith family had these things on their mind.
What about the idea that Joseph obtained a gold plate prop from his magician friend Luman Walters? Walters was known to have all kinds of props -- "trappings of a medieval magician" -- moreover a rusty sword. So why not gold looking plates?
Dan Vogel, where the hell are you? Thou art the man!
The Book of Mormon is either what it claims to be, a translation of an ancient record about founding immigrant populations to the American Continent, written in a yet to be discovered language, referred to as Reformed Egyptian, engraved on golden plates and delivered to Smith by a heavenly apparition, a once living ancient inhabitant of the American Continent named Moroni or it is a work of fiction, a fraud perpetrated by its actual author Joseph Smith. There are no other options.
Literally every known observable and testable means available to measure the authenticity of the book, save good feelings, leads one to conclude that the book is a 19th century fable created by the inventive mind of Joseph Smith. Which leads to the final question.
Q: If we know that the book is a work of fiction and not what it claims to be and therefore nothing more than a tool Joseph Smith used to perpetrate his fraud, then what do we make of the process Smith employed to produce his book?
A: We must conclude that literally everything that Smith did, every story he told, every instrument he used, every trick of deception he orchestrated was a conscience calculated design by Smith to delude those around him so that he could successfully commit his fraud. All of the means Smith employed, the rock in the hat, the production of plates, the deceiving of witnesses and scribes, the claims of heavenly messengers and the converting of gullible people hungry for the fabricated, make believe promises that Smith concocted were all done so that Smith could achieve his own selfish ends. The complete domination and god like power Smith achieved over the simple, desperate people who bought into his con.
RFM/consiglieri has furthered our understanding of the possible deceptive steps Smith used to achieve his fraud by parting the curtain on the processes magicians use to accomplish their tricks. By knowing that the Book of Mormon is a fictional work used by Smith to achieve his goals to achieve power and domination over gullible people also exposes Smith as an imposter who tricked his audience into believing he was something other than what he actually was, a complete and utter fraudulent illusionist.
Craig Paxton wrote:. . . . or it is a work of fiction, a fraud perpetrated by its actual author Joseph Smith. There are no other options.
Indeed, it's either or:
1. Either a resurrected man by the name of Moroni really did appear in Joseph's bedroom or he did not.
2. Either Joseph Smith really did have ancient gold plates which he dug up on a hill or he did not.
3. Either God inspired Joseph to translate the gold plates through a seer stone in a hat or he did not.
The same can be said for Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham papyrus:
1. Either Smith really did have papyrus rolls penned by Abraham & Joseph or he did not.
2. Either the Explanations of the Facsimiles are correct translations and interpretations or they are not.
3. Either there is a king's name in Facsimile No. 3 or there is not.
It's easy to prove that Smith was a false translator. He was a conman all the way. I so testify by my own heart and mind and all the intelligence within me that I know that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud -- so help me God, I know it, positively and absolutely, beyond a shadow of doubt.
Sure, I think in hindsight it works to some extent. I just don't understand the mindset he must have been in in order to think he needed something more than his recorded story, as if it came from plates. "I need to trick certain people to think I'm seeing words in a hat, so I can complete the sham!" Doesn't mean a whole lot to me. He could have just produced the text and voila, tricked everyone just the same without risking someone catching his tells or his elaborate effort to keep hidden from people right before their eyes. It's as if a major part of the whole enterprise was to pull off a big trick for the sake of pulling off the big trick.
The Book of Mormon translation was certainly a much bigger production than his later work. The Book of Moses and D&C revelations just involved him writing stuff down and saying it came from God. With the Book of Abraham, he actually had legit ancient documents. He didn't need to conceal them and make excuses for how only a few people could see them with their spiritual eyes. He proudly displayed them for anyone who wanted to take a look (for a fee of course). Plus, by that point he had established himself as a prophet with a relatively large group of credulous believers. I agree with others that Joseph was great at adapting his craft to the situation. With the Book of Mormon, he was at the stage of his career where he used his stone to find treasures which were not really there. So it makes sense that his first "translation" was a treasure he claimed to find in the ground that wasn't really there. He used different methods for his later scams, adapting to the situation.
With the Book of Mormon, he was at the stage of his career where he used his stone to find treasures which were not really there. So it makes sense that his first "translation" was a treasure he claimed to find in the ground that wasn't really there. He used different methods for his later scams, adapting to the situation.
Thanks for that! It just dawned on me that the gold plates were the answer to all the previous failures in treasure digging!
2 + 2 = 4
or
treasure digging + gold plates = Joseph finally found lost treasure
