I'm reviewing Dan McClellan's Book "The Bible Says So" Tonight on my BYP LIVE Show

[MG 2.0]

Hi malkie, I think I did answer your questions. We, along with church authorities, are in a sense members of a 'tribe', yes? Including those that came before us. And the problem is, we don't have access to and/or are not privy to all of the information needed to make an accurate assessment.

But as I said, we DO know what humans are prone to do.We are then responsible...as individuals...to determine the truth inasmuch as we are able to do so. At times we give each other the benefit of a doubt. That, in and of itself, is very hard to do at times.

Would you agree?

Regards,
MG

I'm going to attempt to candidly interpret MG's vague concessions about human nature, when asked about church leaders, both specifically by name, and more generally as a group. Interpreted remarks are in bold italics.

• Did you [MG} mean to imply that, because "Wilford Woodruff said nothing until AFTER Heber C.", Wilford may have been simply supporting Heber's lie - that is, he had no prior knowledge of the story about the sword.
  Yes, indeed - there's not a lot of wiggle room to interpret my [MG's] remarks. I [MG} think it's likely that Heber lied, and Wilford covered for him.
• Were Heber and possibly Wilford the only church leaders not always known to tell the truth", or "known to embellish and at times leave out important information when giving narratives/accounts."?
  It doesn't seem likely that Heber and possibly Wilford the only church leaders to lie, especially when under pressure. Other church leaders are likely to have lied also (they were not always known to tell the truth), and to have embellished or omitted important information.
• Have any of the present-day GAs been "not always known to tell the truth", or "known to embellish and at times leave out important information when giving narratives/accounts."?
  Given that former church leaders have lied, perhaps especially when under pressure, it seems unlikely that modern church leaders are any different. This gives rise to the well-known "lying for the lord". Modern church leaders are no more reliable and truthful than earlier ones.

Would you agree? Or are you going to "TTOC"?

Nicely done! I don't have much a quibble with your synopsis. Although with the caveat that I've gone into a bit more depth earlier on why I'm willing to go with you on this.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I do believe in the First Vision. As you know there are various accounts including a couple that are quite early in Joseph's career. One of them in his own hand.

Regards,
MG

The earliest account in Joseph's own hand was over a decade later.

Correct. 1832 if I'm not mistaken. There are also early allusions/references in the D&C.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

MG,

Here are just a few of the many, many accounts. I feel for you man. You've been in the church all of your life and it appears you are just learning about this troubling history. My advice, just put it on the shelf with all of your other issues.

Apologies for the formating. It's hard to cut and paste from the Hale's Appendix. Go to Appendix A of the Hale's article for a more detailed analysis of the dates and accounts of the angel with the sword commanding Joseph with the threat of destruction if he didn't fulfill the practice of polygamy https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... -Sword.pdf

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner recalled that the sword-threat was not symbolic: “Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill the commandment

Heber C. Kimball
A grand and glorious principle had been revealed, and for years had slumbered in the breast of God’s Prophet, awaiting the time when, with safety to himself and the Church, it might be confided to the sacred keeping of a chosen few. That time had now come. An angel with a flaming sword descended from the courts of glory and, confronting the Prophet, commanded him in the name of the Lord to establish the principle.

Joseph F. Smith
“Joseph Smith was commanded to take wives, he hesitated and postponed it, seeing the consequences and the trouble that it would bring and he shrank from the responsibility, but he prayed to the Lord for it to pass as Jesus did, but Jesus had to drink it to the dregs so it was with Joseph Smith, the Lord had revealed it to him, and said now is the time for it to be practiced—but it was not until he had been told he must practice it or be destroyed that he made the attempt.

The Accounts of the Angel with a Drawn Sword
Witness Quotation Reference

Joseph Lee Robinson
“The Lord instead of releasing [Joseph Smith] from that burden, he sent an holy angel with a drawn sword unto him, saying unto him, Joseph, unless you go to and immediately teach that principle (namely polygamy or plural marriage) and put the same in practice, that he, Joseph, should be slain for thus saith the Lord, that the time has now come that I will raise up seed unto me as I spoke by my servant Jacob as is recorded in the Book of Mormon, therefore, I command my people.”

Lorenzo Snow
“He [Joseph Smith] said that the Lord had revealed [the doctrine of the plurality of wives] unto him and commanded him to have women sealed
to him as wives, that he foresaw thetrouble that would follow and sought to turn away from the commandment, that an angel from heaven appeared
before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment.”

Joseph F. Smith, Affidavit, August 18,
1869; Joseph F. Smith
Affidavit Books, 2:19,
“[Joseph Smith] explained to me the principles of plural marriage distinctly and clearly, and told me that the Lord had revealed the principle and had commanded him to enter into that practice. And that he had received a revelation to that effect. He said that he had demurred to doing so as he foresaw the trouble that would ensue, but that an angel of the Lord had appeared before him with a drawn sword commanding him to do so and he could not go backward.”

Lorenzo Snow, Testimony, Temple Lot
“Pres[iden]t Lorenzo Snow stated that he was in England with Bro[ther] [Parley] Pratt when reports came from Nauvoo to the effect that the doctrine of plural marriage was bring taught. Upon his return to Nauvoo in the spring of 1843 he had a long talk with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who fully
explained to him the doctrine of plural marriage, and stated that an angel with a drawn sword had visited him and commanded him to
go into this principle, and President Smith told Bro[ther] Snow to enter into plural marriage.”

Heber J. Grant, Diary,
“[Joseph Smith declared] that an angel appeared unto him with a drawn sword, threatening to slay him if he did not proceed to fulfill the law that had been given to him."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
Affidavit,
“Hyrum said to me, ‘Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
“Brother Hyram [Smith] at once took me in hand, apparently in fear I was not fully Converted and this was the manner of his talk to me—‘Now Benjamin, you must not be afraid of this new doctrine for it is all Right. You Know Brother Hyram don't get carried away by worldly things, and he faught this principle untill the Lord Showed him it was true. I know that Joseph was Commanded to take more wives and he waited untill an Angel
with a drawn Sword Stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that Command he would Slay him.’”

Eliza R. Snow
“It was a perfect law. said she had her own prejuse about it said she did not know much about it when she was married to Joseph Smith said she did not know if ever she would be owned as a wife spoke of the Angel standing with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not comply with the requirement of heaven that his priesthood should be taken from him”

“Joseph told [my brother] Lorenzo Snow that he had ‘hesitated and deferred from time to time, until an angel of God stood by him with a drawn sword and told him that, unless he moved forward and established plural marriage, his Priesthood would betaken from him and he should be destroyed!"

Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record
of Lorenzo Snow (Salt
Lake City, UT: Deseret News Company,
1884), 69–70.
1887
“[Joseph Smith] received the revelation in 1837, but he was himself afraid to promulgate it until the angel came and stood beside him with flaming sword and bade him do the command of God. Not until then did Joseph enter into polygamy, or get any of his disciples to take plural wives.”

Orson Pratt
“I had a pleasant conversation… of the trials of the Prophet Joseph in first introducing the doctrine of Celestial marriage in Nauvoo and quoted the
statement of the late apostle and church Historian [Orson Pratt d. 1881], that the angel of the Lord appeared unto the Prophet Joseph with a drawn sword and declared that if He, Joseph did not go to and teach and practice the Holy com

Zina D. Young told of Bro. Joseph’s remark in relation to the revelation on celestial marriage. How an angel came to hi with a drawn sword, and
said if he did not obey this law he would lose his priesthood; and in the keeping of it he, Joseph, did not know but it would cost him his life.”
“The Prophet’s Birthday,” Deseret News,
January 12, 1881, 2.

“[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told
me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lose my position and my life.’”

Helen Mar Kimball
“This angel, he [Joseph ] states, stood over him with a drawn sword prepared to inflict the penalty of death if he should be disobedient.”

Helen Mar Whitney,
“This fact [plural marriage] the Lord revealed to His prophet, Joseph Smith, as early as the year 1831. And yet, had it not been for the fear of
His displeasure, Joseph would have shrunk from the undertaking and would have continued silent, as he did for years, until an angel of the Lord threatened to slay him if he did not reveal and practice it."

“Spoke of the Angel of the Lord meeting Joseph with a drawn sword and of his going to slay him for his being neglectful in the discharges of his duties and of Joseph having to plead on his knees before the Angel for his Life.”

Diary of Charles Lowell
Walker, 2 vols. (Logan,
UT: Utah State University Press
“The Prophet Joseph had said to him [Erastus Snow] also ‘I have not been obedient enough to this holy law and the Lord was angry with me and an
angel met me with a drawn sword but I pled with the Lord to forgive me and he did so and I made the sacrifice required of my hand and by the help of the Lord I will obey his Holy Law.’”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner
“In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife. I was a thousand miles from him. He got afraid. The angel came to him [Joseph Smith] three times, the last time with a drawn sword and threatened his life.”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins
Lightner, Statement,
February 8, 1902, Vesta
Crawford Papers

“Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill t

“An angel came to [Joseph Smith] and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him. Joseph said he talked to him soberly about it, and told him it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak. . . Said he . . . ‘The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.’”

“God Commanded him to take as a plural wife, \in 1834/ he was very much frightened about [it] until the Angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before \that/ he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him.” [Sword not mentioned.]

Professor Chang: As incredible as it is that they all came up with basically the same story, we should not believe these wives and friends of Joseph Smith and their accounts of what the prophet personally told them.

[Rivendale]

MG,

Here are just a few of the many, many accounts. I feel for you man. You've been in the church all of your life and it appears you are just learning about this troubling history. My advice, just put it on the shelf with all of your other issues.

Apologies for the formating. It's hard to cut and paste from the Hale's Appendix. Go to Appendix A of the Hale's article for a more detailed analysis of the dates and accounts of the angel with the sword commanding Joseph with the threat of destruction if he didn't fulfill the practice of polygamy https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... -Sword.pdf

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner recalled that the sword-threat was not symbolic: “Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill the commandment

Heber C. Kimball
A grand and glorious principle had been revealed, and for years had slumbered in the breast of God’s Prophet, awaiting the time when, with safety to himself and the Church, it might be confided to the sacred keeping of a chosen few. That time had now come. An angel with a flaming sword descended from the courts of glory and, confronting the Prophet, commanded him in the name of the Lord to establish the principle.

Joseph F. Smith
“Joseph Smith was commanded to take wives, he hesitated and postponed it, seeing the consequences and the trouble that it would bring and he shrank from the responsibility, but he prayed to the Lord for it to pass as Jesus did, but Jesus had to drink it to the dregs so it was with Joseph Smith, the Lord had revealed it to him, and said now is the time for it to be practiced—but it was not until he had been told he must practice it or be destroyed that he made the attempt.

The Accounts of the Angel with a Drawn Sword
Witness Quotation Reference

Joseph Lee Robinson
“The Lord instead of releasing [Joseph Smith] from that burden, he sent an holy angel with a drawn sword unto him, saying unto him, Joseph, unless you go to and immediately teach that principle (namely polygamy or plural marriage) and put the same in practice, that he, Joseph, should be slain for thus saith the Lord, that the time has now come that I will raise up seed unto me as I spoke by my servant Jacob as is recorded in the Book of Mormon, therefore, I command my people.”

Lorenzo Snow
“He [Joseph Smith] said that the Lord had revealed [the doctrine of the plurality of wives] unto him and commanded him to have women sealed
to him as wives, that he foresaw thetrouble that would follow and sought to turn away from the commandment, that an angel from heaven appeared
before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment.”

Joseph F. Smith, Affidavit, August 18,
1869; Joseph F. Smith
Affidavit Books, 2:19,
“[Joseph Smith] explained to me the principles of plural marriage distinctly and clearly, and told me that the Lord had revealed the principle and had commanded him to enter into that practice. And that he had received a revelation to that effect. He said that he had demurred to doing so as he foresaw the trouble that would ensue, but that an angel of the Lord had appeared before him with a drawn sword commanding him to do so and he could not go backward.”

Lorenzo Snow, Testimony, Temple Lot
“Pres[iden]t Lorenzo Snow stated that he was in England with Bro[ther] [Parley] Pratt when reports came from Nauvoo to the effect that the doctrine of plural marriage was bring taught. Upon his return to Nauvoo in the spring of 1843 he had a long talk with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who fully
explained to him the doctrine of plural marriage, and stated that an angel with a drawn sword had visited him and commanded him to
go into this principle, and President Smith told Bro[ther] Snow to enter into plural marriage.”

Heber J. Grant, Diary,
“[Joseph Smith declared] that an angel appeared unto him with a drawn sword, threatening to slay him if he did not proceed to fulfill the law that had been given to him."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
Affidavit,
“Hyrum said to me, ‘Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
“Brother Hyram [Smith] at once took me in hand, apparently in fear I was not fully Converted and this was the manner of his talk to me—‘Now Benjamin, you must not be afraid of this new doctrine for it is all Right. You Know Brother Hyram don't get carried away by worldly things, and he faught this principle untill the Lord Showed him it was true. I know that Joseph was Commanded to take more wives and he waited untill an Angel
with a drawn Sword Stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that Command he would Slay him.’”

Eliza R. Snow
“It was a perfect law. said she had her own prejuse about it said she did not know much about it when she was married to Joseph Smith said she did not know if ever she would be owned as a wife spoke of the Angel standing with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not comply with the requirement of heaven that his priesthood should be taken from him”

“Joseph told [my brother] Lorenzo Snow that he had ‘hesitated and deferred from time to time, until an angel of God stood by him with a drawn sword and told him that, unless he moved forward and established plural marriage, his Priesthood would betaken from him and he should be destroyed!"

Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record
of Lorenzo Snow (Salt
Lake City, UT: Deseret News Company,
1884), 69–70.
1887
“[Joseph Smith] received the revelation in 1837, but he was himself afraid to promulgate it until the angel came and stood beside him with flaming sword and bade him do the command of God. Not until then did Joseph enter into polygamy, or get any of his disciples to take plural wives.”

Orson Pratt
“I had a pleasant conversation… of the trials of the Prophet Joseph in first introducing the doctrine of Celestial marriage in Nauvoo and quoted the
statement of the late apostle and church Historian [Orson Pratt d. 1881], that the angel of the Lord appeared unto the Prophet Joseph with a drawn sword and declared that if He, Joseph did not go to and teach and practice the Holy com

Zina D. Young told of Bro. Joseph’s remark in relation to the revelation on celestial marriage. How an angel came to hi with a drawn sword, and
said if he did not obey this law he would lose his priesthood; and in the keeping of it he, Joseph, did not know but it would cost him his life.”
“The Prophet’s Birthday,” Deseret News,
January 12, 1881, 2.

“[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told
me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lose my position and my life.’”

Helen Mar Kimball
“This angel, he [Joseph ] states, stood over him with a drawn sword prepared to inflict the penalty of death if he should be disobedient.”

Helen Mar Whitney,
“This fact [plural marriage] the Lord revealed to His prophet, Joseph Smith, as early as the year 1831. And yet, had it not been for the fear of
His displeasure, Joseph would have shrunk from the undertaking and would have continued silent, as he did for years, until an angel of the Lord threatened to slay him if he did not reveal and practice it."

“Spoke of the Angel of the Lord meeting Joseph with a drawn sword and of his going to slay him for his being neglectful in the discharges of his duties and of Joseph having to plead on his knees before the Angel for his Life.”

Diary of Charles Lowell
Walker, 2 vols. (Logan,
UT: Utah State University Press
“The Prophet Joseph had said to him [Erastus Snow] also ‘I have not been obedient enough to this holy law and the Lord was angry with me and an
angel met me with a drawn sword but I pled with the Lord to forgive me and he did so and I made the sacrifice required of my hand and by the help of the Lord I will obey his Holy Law.’”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner
“In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife. I was a thousand miles from him. He got afraid. The angel came to him [Joseph Smith] three times, the last time with a drawn sword and threatened his life.”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins
Lightner, Statement,
February 8, 1902, Vesta
Crawford Papers

“Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill t

“An angel came to [Joseph Smith] and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him. Joseph said he talked to him soberly about it, and told him it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak. . . Said he . . . ‘The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.’”

“God Commanded him to take as a plural wife, \in 1834/ he was very much frightened about [it] until the Angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before \that/ he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him.” [Sword not mentioned.]

Professor Chang: As incredible as it is that they all came up with basically the same story, we should not believe these wives and friends of Joseph Smith and their accounts of what the prophet personally told them.

This doesn't get filed in the religion poisons everything file but rather the lots of moving parts file.

[I Have Questions]

MG,

Here are just a few of the many, many accounts. I feel for you man. You've been in the church all of your life and it appears you are just learning about this troubling history. My advice, just put it on the shelf with all of your other issues.

Apologies for the formating. It's hard to cut and paste from the Hale's Appendix. Go to Appendix A of the Hale's article for a more detailed analysis of the dates and accounts of the angel with the sword commanding Joseph with the threat of destruction if he didn't fulfill the practice of polygamy https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-con ... -Sword.pdf

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner recalled that the sword-threat was not symbolic: “Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill the commandment

Heber C. Kimball
A grand and glorious principle had been revealed, and for years had slumbered in the breast of God’s Prophet, awaiting the time when, with safety to himself and the Church, it might be confided to the sacred keeping of a chosen few. That time had now come. An angel with a flaming sword descended from the courts of glory and, confronting the Prophet, commanded him in the name of the Lord to establish the principle.

Joseph F. Smith
“Joseph Smith was commanded to take wives, he hesitated and postponed it, seeing the consequences and the trouble that it would bring and he shrank from the responsibility, but he prayed to the Lord for it to pass as Jesus did, but Jesus had to drink it to the dregs so it was with Joseph Smith, the Lord had revealed it to him, and said now is the time for it to be practiced—but it was not until he had been told he must practice it or be destroyed that he made the attempt.

The Accounts of the Angel with a Drawn Sword
Witness Quotation Reference

Joseph Lee Robinson
“The Lord instead of releasing [Joseph Smith] from that burden, he sent an holy angel with a drawn sword unto him, saying unto him, Joseph, unless you go to and immediately teach that principle (namely polygamy or plural marriage) and put the same in practice, that he, Joseph, should be slain for thus saith the Lord, that the time has now come that I will raise up seed unto me as I spoke by my servant Jacob as is recorded in the Book of Mormon, therefore, I command my people.”

Lorenzo Snow
“He [Joseph Smith] said that the Lord had revealed [the doctrine of the plurality of wives] unto him and commanded him to have women sealed
to him as wives, that he foresaw thetrouble that would follow and sought to turn away from the commandment, that an angel from heaven appeared
before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment.”

Joseph F. Smith, Affidavit, August 18,
1869; Joseph F. Smith
Affidavit Books, 2:19,
“[Joseph Smith] explained to me the principles of plural marriage distinctly and clearly, and told me that the Lord had revealed the principle and had commanded him to enter into that practice. And that he had received a revelation to that effect. He said that he had demurred to doing so as he foresaw the trouble that would ensue, but that an angel of the Lord had appeared before him with a drawn sword commanding him to do so and he could not go backward.”

Lorenzo Snow, Testimony, Temple Lot
“Pres[iden]t Lorenzo Snow stated that he was in England with Bro[ther] [Parley] Pratt when reports came from Nauvoo to the effect that the doctrine of plural marriage was bring taught. Upon his return to Nauvoo in the spring of 1843 he had a long talk with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who fully
explained to him the doctrine of plural marriage, and stated that an angel with a drawn sword had visited him and commanded him to
go into this principle, and President Smith told Bro[ther] Snow to enter into plural marriage.”

Heber J. Grant, Diary,
“[Joseph Smith declared] that an angel appeared unto him with a drawn sword, threatening to slay him if he did not proceed to fulfill the law that had been given to him."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
Affidavit,
“Hyrum said to me, ‘Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law."

Benjamin F. Johnson,
“Brother Hyram [Smith] at once took me in hand, apparently in fear I was not fully Converted and this was the manner of his talk to me—‘Now Benjamin, you must not be afraid of this new doctrine for it is all Right. You Know Brother Hyram don't get carried away by worldly things, and he faught this principle untill the Lord Showed him it was true. I know that Joseph was Commanded to take more wives and he waited untill an Angel
with a drawn Sword Stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that Command he would Slay him.’”

Eliza R. Snow
“It was a perfect law. said she had her own prejuse about it said she did not know much about it when she was married to Joseph Smith said she did not know if ever she would be owned as a wife spoke of the Angel standing with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not comply with the requirement of heaven that his priesthood should be taken from him”

“Joseph told [my brother] Lorenzo Snow that he had ‘hesitated and deferred from time to time, until an angel of God stood by him with a drawn sword and told him that, unless he moved forward and established plural marriage, his Priesthood would betaken from him and he should be destroyed!"

Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record
of Lorenzo Snow (Salt
Lake City, UT: Deseret News Company,
1884), 69–70.
1887
“[Joseph Smith] received the revelation in 1837, but he was himself afraid to promulgate it until the angel came and stood beside him with flaming sword and bade him do the command of God. Not until then did Joseph enter into polygamy, or get any of his disciples to take plural wives.”

Orson Pratt
“I had a pleasant conversation… of the trials of the Prophet Joseph in first introducing the doctrine of Celestial marriage in Nauvoo and quoted the
statement of the late apostle and church Historian [Orson Pratt d. 1881], that the angel of the Lord appeared unto the Prophet Joseph with a drawn sword and declared that if He, Joseph did not go to and teach and practice the Holy com

Zina D. Young told of Bro. Joseph’s remark in relation to the revelation on celestial marriage. How an angel came to hi with a drawn sword, and
said if he did not obey this law he would lose his priesthood; and in the keeping of it he, Joseph, did not know but it would cost him his life.”
“The Prophet’s Birthday,” Deseret News,
January 12, 1881, 2.

“[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told
me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lose my position and my life.’”

Helen Mar Kimball
“This angel, he [Joseph ] states, stood over him with a drawn sword prepared to inflict the penalty of death if he should be disobedient.”

Helen Mar Whitney,
“This fact [plural marriage] the Lord revealed to His prophet, Joseph Smith, as early as the year 1831. And yet, had it not been for the fear of
His displeasure, Joseph would have shrunk from the undertaking and would have continued silent, as he did for years, until an angel of the Lord threatened to slay him if he did not reveal and practice it."

“Spoke of the Angel of the Lord meeting Joseph with a drawn sword and of his going to slay him for his being neglectful in the discharges of his duties and of Joseph having to plead on his knees before the Angel for his Life.”

Diary of Charles Lowell
Walker, 2 vols. (Logan,
UT: Utah State University Press
“The Prophet Joseph had said to him [Erastus Snow] also ‘I have not been obedient enough to this holy law and the Lord was angry with me and an
angel met me with a drawn sword but I pled with the Lord to forgive me and he did so and I made the sacrifice required of my hand and by the help of the Lord I will obey his Holy Law.’”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner
“In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife. I was a thousand miles from him. He got afraid. The angel came to him [Joseph Smith] three times, the last time with a drawn sword and threatened his life.”

Mary Elizabeth Rollins
Lightner, Statement,
February 8, 1902, Vesta
Crawford Papers
“Joseph told me that he was afraid when the angel appeared to him and told him to take other wives. He hesitated, and the angel appeared to him the third time with a drawn sword in his hand and threatened his life if he did not fulfill it

“An angel came to [Joseph Smith] and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him. Joseph said he talked to him soberly about it, and told him it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak. . . Said he . . . ‘The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.’”

“God Commanded him to take as a plural wife, \in 1834/ he was very much frightened about [it] until the Angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before \that/ he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him.” [Sword not mentioned.]

Professor Chang: As incredible as it is that they all came up with basically the same story, we should not believe these wives and friends of Joseph Smith and their accounts of what the prophet personally told them.

And this is why discussion with MG 2.0 is anything but. There’s no consistency. On the one hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is not to be believed. Yet on the other hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is true. It’s intellectual dishonesty. MG starts with what he wants to believe and then tries to justify it, even if the way he justifies it is the same basis he has used to justify his decision not to believe something. As I say, it’s intellectual dishonesty. In spades.

[Marcus]

And this is why discussion with MG 2.0 is anything but. There’s no consistency. On the one hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is not to be believed. Yet on the other hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is true. It’s intellectual dishonesty. MG starts with what he wants to believe and then tries to justify it, even if the way he justifies it is the same basis he has used to justify his decision not to believe something. As I say, it’s intellectual dishonesty. In spades.

Yes it is, and it's baked in. The funniest incident to me was when mg argued that Prof. Jenkin's posts during the Hamblin-Jenkins debate were not to be trusted because of Prof. Jenkin's "bias." His explanation was that the bias arose from Jenkin's religious background. When it was pointed out that Hamblin also had a 'religious background' mg grudgingly admitted that yes, Hamblin could show bias for the same reason. When it was further pointed out that if everyone has some bias, then you can't discount only one side for that reason, nor can you discount anything without evaluating the facts of their statements, mg fell apart and descended into his usual name-calling and 'i am more righteous than thou' act.

Ultimately, he still insisted that Jenkins was biased [because he disagreed with the Mormon position] and that Hamblin's bias was not really bias [because he held the Mormon position]. The intellectual dishonesty of that position was pointed out, and mg suddenly realized he had better things to do, left his usual calling card that he would return if he decided that (in his opinion of course) 'anything meaningful' was posted, and slunk into the ether.

Intellectual dishonesty, cowardice, and trolling, all wrapped up into one mentally insufficient gymnast's position.

[MG 2.0]

Professor Chang: As incredible as it is that they all came up with basically the same story, we should not believe these wives and friends of Joseph Smith and their accounts of what the prophet personally told them.

And this is why discussion with MG 2.0 is anything but. There’s no consistency. On the one hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is not to be believed. Yet on the other hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is true. It’s intellectual dishonesty. MG starts with what he wants to believe and then tries to justify it, even if the way he justifies it is the same basis he has used to justify his decision not to believe something. As I say, it’s intellectual dishonesty. In spades.

If it was, I wouldn't do it. I have too much integrity to play a stupid game like that. And yes, I will be the judge of that.

Ask Morley and malkie. I've been pretty up front with them recently.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

I have too much integrity to play a stupid game like that.

[Morley]

And this is why discussion with MG 2.0 is anything but. There’s no consistency. On the one hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is not to be believed. Yet on the other hand, witnesses and after-the-event accounts are evidence that something is true. It’s intellectual dishonesty. MG starts with what he wants to believe and then tries to justify it, even if the way he justifies it is the same basis he has used to justify his decision not to believe something. As I say, it’s intellectual dishonesty. In spades.

If it was, I wouldn't do it. I have too much integrity to play a stupid game like that. And yes, I will be the judge of that.

Ask Morley and malkie. I've been pretty up front with them recently.

Regards,
MG

You read me well. At least in this instance, indeed you have. I'm happy to see you taking a principled stand on some on these tough questions.

Bravo.

[MG 2.0]

I have too much integrity to play a stupid game like that.

TTOC