New Pew research shows LDS retention rate worsening for those raised LDS

[Rivendale]

[Mormon leaders] know no more about Christ than you or I do. No special insights.

What do you know about Christ? For example, do you know/believe/have faith that He was resurrected? Your earlier post was, in my opinion, defective and showed lack of understanding in some respects. That's why I bumped it for you to come back to. It seemed to show a misunderstanding of the events surrounding the resurrection and how that might have affected the aftermath, etc.

Why do you feel so strongly that leaders of the LDS Church have lesser knowledge than you in the matter I just mentioned along with others? Is it because they're human and have made mistakes?

Regards,
MG

There is no good evidence Christ or anyone else has ever reanimated after death. All the cobbled scriptures and witness claims have been made for all kinds of prophets who resurrected Christ is merely one of them.

[Limnor]

Why do think that a Father would NOT want His children to be come more like Him? You can’t literally become your father but you can become like him (assuming he was a father that you would want to follow in his example). If we are the family of God it seems to be a simple thing that God the Father would not want us to stagnate and remain the same as we are now throughout eternity.

Now, if this is true, I would…without any hesitation…admit that I don’t have an inkling of what things would look like 10,000 years from now (putting a time limit on it because we’re trapped in time and space and I don’t really have any other way to conceptualize an existence far into the future)…but what I am confident of is that we won’t be sitting around praising God and playing a tune on a harp ad nauseam. That, honestly, doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

Do you not want to become more like God in the very nature of your being?

Our God will always be the One worthy of our worship. Latter-day Saints would not differ from a traditional Christians in that respect. And in the day to day life of a traditional Christian and a member of the LDS church the doctrinal differences don’t have to be a wedge.

Unless you let it be so.

We have more in common than what differentiates us. This might be where your ‘trust issues’ of Latter-day Saints might be worthy of some adjustment. That has to come on your end though. I mentioned earlier that I trust that you are a Christian believer. That much I can trust/determine in what I’ve heard from you.

Regards,
MG

Being transformed by Christ isn't the same thing as becoming what Christ is by nature. The branch doesn’t become the vine. It lives because of the vine. The concept of adoption seems foreign to LDS thought as well.

Not trusting you is a problem with me? lol ok

[MG 2.0]

I would think that this would be true even without having to emphasize it...but it doesn't hurt to do so. Thanks. This, of course, requires thinking deeply and over a period of time. Many things in life require time, experience, AND using our brains. My pet peeve is when people, including myself, may not always give the mind...and heart...a chance to look deeply, experience much, and let time be the teacher.

I'm sure our parents and other mentors may have had that same pet peeve about us way back when, right?

Regards,
MG

A person can spend an entire lifetime thinking deeply about something and still be mistaken. Time, experience, and sincerity don’t make a belief true. Marcus seemed to be making a point about a willingness to apply critical thinking to authorities we’ve been taught to trust, especially when that thinking challenges their claims to authority.

Here’s the thing. I can speak to this from having been a member of the church from the time I was eight years old. I’m IN the church. I have had experience. I’ve thought deeply (maybe too much so ) Sure, I could be mistaken. I’ll tell you what though. There is enough ‘there’ there that causes me to think otherwise. One that is outside of the church and has their own predetermined views is not going to ‘see’ what another might see who has deeply drunk from the waters of Mormonism (the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ) over a period of time having traveled a wide and circuitous path.

That’s not pointing a finger of fault. It’s just the way it is. Your deeply held thoughts and beliefs have taken you a different direction. Personally, I value and respect that as I would anyone else who as actually done due diligence.

Sadly, I don’t think some have…but that’s their business and between them and their Maker.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

but what I am confident of is that we won’t be sitting around praising God and playing a tune on a harp ad nauseam. That, honestly, doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

I don’t pretend to know what eternity will look like either, but I don’t see why knowing God and participating in his life should be considered boring.

[MG 2.0]

Why do think that a Father would NOT want His children to be come more like Him? You can’t literally become your father but you can become like him (assuming he was a father that you would want to follow in his example). If we are the family of God it seems to be a simple thing that God the Father would not want us to stagnate and remain the same as we are now throughout eternity.

Now, if this is true, I would…without any hesitation…admit that I don’t have an inkling of what things would look like 10,000 years from now (putting a time limit on it because we’re trapped in time and space and I don’t really have any other way to conceptualize an existence far into the future)…but what I am confident of is that we won’t be sitting around praising God and playing a tune on a harp ad nauseam. That, honestly, doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

Do you not want to become more like God in the very nature of your being?

Our God will always be the One worthy of our worship. Latter-day Saints would not differ from a traditional Christians in that respect. And in the day to day life of a traditional Christian and a member of the LDS church the doctrinal differences don’t have to be a wedge.

Unless you let it be so.

We have more in common than what differentiates us. This might be where your ‘trust issues’ of Latter-day Saints might be worthy of some adjustment. That has to come on your end though. I mentioned earlier that I trust that you are a Christian believer. That much I can trust/determine in what I’ve heard from you.

Regards,
MG

Being transformed by Christ isn't the same thing as becoming what Christ is by nature. The branch doesn’t become the vine. It lives because of the vine. The concept of adoption seems foreign to LDS thought as well.

Honestly, this seems a bit ethereal, figurative, and incomplete in any sense of the word. At least to me. I’ve laid out what I think here but I’m just not sure that what you’re saying matches with an understandable/coherent reality of an ongoing relationship that God would desire/hope/want with His children. I think you might want to flesh it out a bit more.

Some of the disconnect might be in our differing positions in regard to who Jesus and God the Father are. But I’m happy to leave it on the table at this point if you want to. You have your beliefs. God knows that. He loves you for who/what you are just as He loves Latter-day Saints and ALL of His children.

We can only try to follow that example.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

A person can spend an entire lifetime thinking deeply about something and still be mistaken. Time, experience, and sincerity don’t make a belief true. Marcus seemed to be making a point about a willingness to apply critical thinking to authorities we’ve been taught to trust, especially when that thinking challenges their claims to authority.

Here’s the thing. I can speak to this from having been a member of the church from the time I was eight years old. I’m IN the church. I have had experience. I’ve thought deeply (maybe too much so ) Sure, I could be mistaken. I’ll tell you what though. There is enough ‘there’ there that causes me to think otherwise. One that is outside of the church and has their own predetermined views is not going to ‘see’ what another might see who has deeply drunk from the waters of Mormonism (the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ) over a period of time having traveled a wide and circuitous path.

That’s not pointing a finger of fault. It’s just the way it is. Your deeply held thoughts and beliefs have taken you a different direction. Personally, I value and respect that as I would anyone else who as actually done due diligence.

Sadly, I don’t think some have…but that’s their business and between them and their Maker.

Regards,
MG

You really seem to be missing the point entirely. The point was that we ought to use our own minds to evaluate claims, not defer to someone’s experience or claimed authority. You seem to be doubling down.

[MG 2.0]

but what I am confident of is that we won’t be sitting around praising God and playing a tune on a harp ad nauseam. That, honestly, doesn’t sound like a whole lot of fun.

I don’t pretend to know what eternity will look like either, but I don’t see why knowing God and participating in his life should be considered boring.

Same here.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Being transformed by Christ isn't the same thing as becoming what Christ is by nature. The branch doesn’t become the vine. It lives because of the vine. The concept of adoption seems foreign to LDS thought as well.

Honestly, this seems a bit ethereal, figurative, and incomplete in any sense of the word. At least to me. I’ve laid out what I think here but I’m just not sure that what you’re saying matches with an understandable/coherent reality of an ongoing relationship that God would desire/hope/want with His children. I think you might want to flesh it out a bit more.

Some of the disconnect might be in our differing positions in regard to who Jesus and God the Father are. But I’m happy to leave it on the table at this point if you want to. You have your beliefs. God knows that. He loves you for who/what you are just as He loves Latter-day Saints and ALL of His children.

We can only try to follow that example.

Regards,
MG

There is a delightful irony in dismissing the vine and branches analogy as too figurative when it was Jesus who chose the metaphor.

[MG 2.0]

Honestly, this seems a bit ethereal, figurative, and incomplete in any sense of the word. At least to me. I’ve laid out what I think here but I’m just not sure that what you’re saying matches with an understandable/coherent reality of an ongoing relationship that God would desire/hope/want with His children. I think you might want to flesh it out a bit more.

Some of the disconnect might be in our differing positions in regard to who Jesus and God the Father are. But I’m happy to leave it on the table at this point if you want to. You have your beliefs. God knows that. He loves you for who/what you are just as He loves Latter-day Saints and ALL of His children.

We can only try to follow that example.

Regards,
MG

There is a delightful irony in dismissing the vine and branches analogy as too figurative when it was Jesus who chose the metaphor.

I get that. It's just that I think you're simplification, at least for me, is unsatisfying. I think God has more in store for us than you might like/want to think.

LDS theology maps that out pretty well compared to traditional/creedal Christianity in my opinion. It is a gospel of progression and gaining more and more knowledge. Not less.

I do wholeheartedly agree with you that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

There is a delightful irony in dismissing the vine and branches analogy as too figurative when it was Jesus who chose the metaphor.

I get that. It's just that I think you're simplification, at least for me, is unsatisfying. I think God has more in store for us than you might like/want to think.

LDS theology maps that out pretty well compared to traditional/creedal Christianity in my opinion.

It is a gospel of progression and gaining more and more knowledge. Not less. I do wholeheartedly agree with you that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.

Regards,
MG

You’d think there would be a certain plainness to it that would appeal to you.

I’ve not argued for less knowledge, less growth, or less of anything God might have in store for us.

Nice straw man though.