Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

[Dr Moore]

The first 74 pages of this thread might be summarized as "grappling with absence of evidence," and at times those efforts led to acrimonious exchanges about what questions were being asked (was Nelson's memory predictably faulty vs did he make up material facts) and/or what questions were answerable with the limited base of knowable facts. I, like others, regretted seeing some of those expressions turn into personal insults. But it's an open forum where people are free to get passionate.

As all data searches tended to produce yet more absent evidence, it felt to me like the thread effectively died with a range of opinions. Most, in my view, were of the opinion that Nelson probably did experience a "scary" event on a flight on or around Nov. 12, 1976 en route from Salt Lake to St. George where he was to give a prayer at the inauguration of Rolfe Kerr at Dixie College, but that the most dramatic details in his retellings failed a smell test of what would/should have been recorded in (a) local news and (b) NTSB notices and/or accident reports. In other words, most remained skeptical, for various and sometimes opposing reasons. A few here seemed to believe the whole scary flight incident was made up. And a few seemed committed to reserving judgment based on the logical fallacy of making judgment based on absence of evidence.

Well, thanks to an out of left field discovery by ko9s, we now have a surprisingly valuable body of evidence against which to compare Nelson's story. Below is my best effort to summarize where that takes us and where further research might prove useful in fact-checking Nelson's "Doors of Death" story.

Circumstantial evidence in support of Nelson's story of a scary flight from SLC to SGU, compared with Sky West incident involving a Piper PA 31 tail number N74985 on November 11, 1976:

Code: Select all

DETAIL				NELSON					C.A.B. VOLUME 73 (1977)
Route				SLC to SGU				SLC to SGU
Flight type			Direct, commuter			Direct, scheduled commuter
Date				On or just before Nov. 12, 1976		Nov. 11, 1976
Plane				Twin engine				Twin engine
Passengers			Multiple others (+Nelson)		3 total passengers
Incident cause			Engine failure				Engine failure
Turbulence, yaw, descent	Yes					Yes
Incident location		Passed half-way to SGU			In area where Delta, UT nearest airport
Stage of flight			Cruising (half-way)			Cruising
Flew to safe landing		Yes					Yes
Landing site			Delta, UT				Delta, UT
Injuries			None					None

In 1976, Sky West was the only commuter flight option between SLC and SGU.

Thanks to the C.A.B. Vol. 73 and its 25 pages or so of reporting on FAA investigations into Sky West safety reports, we know for certain that no other Sky West engine failure incidents occurred anywhere near this location or date. The total of this circumstantial evidence appears to overwhelmingly identify the Sky West flight on Nov. 11, 1976 as the flight Russell M. Nelson took to St. George.

With that in mind, here are areas of difference between specific details Nelson recounted during the past 42 years of retelling the story.

Code: Select all

DETAIL				NELSON					C.A.B. VOLUME 73 (1977)
Descent (1979)			Plummeted				Precautionary landing, per manual
Engine damage (1979)		Exploded				Internal, prop feathered
Landing (1979)			Emergency				Precautionary

Passengers (1985)		About six				3 passengers (not incl. crew)
Engine damage (1985)		Bust open in flames			Severe internal engine damage
Visible damage (1985)		Flames brightest, right side		No fire mentioned
Pilot action (1985)		Turned off gas feeding fire		No fire mentioned
Descent (1985)			Dive earthward to extinguish flames	Precautionary landing
Remaining engine (1985)		Restarted prior to impact		No mention of power loss; could have continued to SGU or back to SLC

Engine damage (1992)		Engine burst open, caught fire		Severe internal damage; prop was feathered
Propeller (1992)		Starkly stilled				Prop was feathered
Descent (1992)			Dive extinguished flames		No fire mentioned
Remaining engine (1992)		Restarted after dive			No mention of power loss; could have continued to SGU or back to SLC

Engine damage (2011)		Engine caught fire			No fire mentioned
Other damage (2011)		Burning oil all over right side		No plane damage reported
Descent (2011)			Spinning dive				Precautionary landing, per manual

Passengers (2019)		Four total				3 total, not including crew
Engine damage (2019)		Engine exploded				Internal damage, prop feathered
Other damage (2019)		Burning oil on right side		No plane damage reported
Descent (2019)			Pilot cut fuel both engines to dive	Nothing but precautionary landing reported
Descent (2019)			Free-fall spiral to kill flames		Nothing but precautionary landing reported
Remaining engine (2019)		Restarted to stabilize from fall	Operational whole time; could have gone on to SGU or back to SLC
Landing (2019)			Emergency				Precautionary, per manual
Landing site (2019)		Farmer's field, not far from Delta	At Delta, UT airport
Remediation (2019)		Another plane dispatched		Presumably, another plane dispatched
On-time for Nelson (2019)	Made it in time to give invocation	Would have been 1 day early for Dixie invocation anyway
(From Sherri Dew 2019 biography)

Engine damage (2019)		Explosion				Internal damage, prop feathered
Landing (2019)			Emergency				Precautionary, per manual
Landing site (2019)		Farmer's field				At Delta, UT airport
(Retold by Nelson in Spanish gathering)

Engine damage (2021)		Suddenly exploded			Internal damage, prop feathered
Other damage (2021)		Oil spewed on right side		No fire reported; no plane damage found
Other damage (2021)		Plane was on fire			No plane damage found
Descent (2021)			Careening, spiral dive			Precautionary landing, per manual
Other engine (2021)		Restored power to land safely		Capable of continuing on to SGU or back to SLC
Timing (2021)			Actually made it on time		Flew one day before, would have made it by any other means

Many specific details are clearly not aligned. Details of this account which agree with Nelson's retelling are all benign. Details that don't agree with Nelson's retelling are almost all in the realm of ultra-dramatic, serving his claim of certain death, which is necessary to trigger that calm certainty about his eternal family, which was the primary point of the story every time.

No doubt, there was turbulence, some yaw and then a descent, then several minutes flying to an unplanned landing at Delta, Utah airport. Nelson likely did take time during those minutes to reflect on how much worse things could have been, that one or two things more gone wrong might have been fatal. His memory likely drifted over the years to ponder the miracle of what didn't happen, more so than to recall specifically what did happen.

Of course, the story wouldn't sell so consistently to audiences for 42 years if Nelson told the more candid version: he was on a plane that experienced a routine type of internal engine failure, followed by turbulence as the pilot feathered the prop and then did everything by the book, including a precautionary landing at the nearest airport in Delta, UT. And that his reflection on what might have been prompted a good story about pondering gratitude for his eternal family.

It would be interesting if someone could track down the legal filings related to C.A.B. order 77-1-133 and subsequent related orders, because some may have additional details from what was purportedly a thorough FAA investigation into 3 Sky West engine failure incidents during Oct-Nov 1976, which includes Nelson's flight. Again, these are all cited in volume 73:
"Page's motion for stay pending judicial review"
"Arizona petition for reconsideration"
"Utah Parties' petition for reconsideration"

[DrW]

Now that's ^ what I would call Fact Checking.
Thank you, Dr. Moore.
Your considerable effort in putting this together really helps set the record straight.

[Lem]

Hi Lem -

Rather than engage in passive aggressive antics, I'll note that you apparently recognized you needed to be called out for asshole behavior given your behavior changed afterward.

Nothing you said has changed anything in my behavior. I would post the same posts again that you were such an asshole about, but after a couple of tries, ignoring trolls and assholes like you is just more efficient.

Anyway, I'm still friendly to you, Lem.

Dear god. Please don't then. No one needs 'friendliness' the way you show it.

There seems to be something really serious going on with the poster who said that. In years past, there was always an attempt by this poster to understand an argument from both sides, but recently they seem determined to burn every bridge they have ever crossed. I empathize with them, as there is apparently considerable pain, but alienating every online person who ever considered one a friend is an unnecessarily negative and harmful approach to take.

Still my position.

[Lem]

Many specific details are clearly not aligned. Details of this account which agree with Nelson's retelling are all benign. Details that don't agree with Nelson's retelling are almost all in the realm of ultra-dramatic, serving his claim of certain death, which is necessary to trigger that calm certainty about his eternal family, which was the primary point of the story every time.

No doubt, there was turbulence, some yaw and then a descent, then several minutes flying to an unplanned landing at Delta, Utah airport. Nelson likely did take time during those minutes to reflect on how much worse things could have been, that one or two things more gone wrong might have been fatal. His memory likely drifted over the years to ponder the miracle of what didn't happen, more so than to recall specifically what did happen.

Of course, the story wouldn't sell so consistently to audiences for 42 years if Nelson told the more candid version: he was on a plane that experienced a routine type of internal engine failure, followed by turbulence as the pilot feathered the prop and then did everything by the book, including a precautionary landing at the nearest airport in Delta, UT. And that his reflection on what might have been prompted a good story about pondering gratitude for his eternal family.

Maybe it wouldn't sell in the commercial sense, but I think it would sell to some, and for the right reasons. It's too bad such ever-expanding Dunnisms (as you nicely documented in your chart, thank you!) seem to have overtaken the storytelling.

[IHAQ]

Now that's ^ what I would call Fact Checking.
Thank you, Dr. Moore.
Your considerable effort in putting this together really helps set the record straight.

Seconded.

I think a number of people have put remarkable effort into this thread, I'm looking at you DrW as well as others, and I'm appreciative of that. These pages document the deceit of the current President of the church.

One can speculate as to why he started telling a tall tale - my baseless speculation would be that he felt his chances of apostleship were hampered by being in a dead end Sunday school calling and by the fact that others, like Dunn, had better anecdotes that were getting them noticed. I reckon he's also a narcissist, everything is all about him. Wendy and Sheri feed it.

I wonder what Sheri Dew and Deseret Book will do, now they know for sure (assuming they didn't before) that the Doors Of Death tale in the Nelson biography is the second* problematic anecdote in the biography they wrote/sold about Nelson?

*The first one was a tale about a man and a woman he met in Korea...introduced Book of Mormon...they were married...joined the Church...millions of kids...spotted her at a Stake Conference in the congregation...yada yada yada...was removed when the people he was talking about let it be known he wasn't telling an accurate story.

[Gadianton]

I kinda doubt that it was all coldly calculated as a means to advance as a church leader. Perhaps the talks of others who were lying about all the great things they did was an additional pressure. But from the summaries I've read of things he said in his family book in 1979, the delusions were in full force, including this plane episode as his stimulus to write the book. If anything, he's toned down as he's never talked about his long visionary interactions with dead church leaders publicly.

He's just one of those people who has always walked around assuming he was God's gift to humanity and ready to take the glory for himself in any situation.

...I do wonder if Uchtdorf got slapped down because he could never look Rusty in the eye convincingly when the story was told?

[DrW]

...I do wonder if Uchtdorf got slapped down because he could never look Rusty in the eye convincingly when the story was told?

Now there's a thought.
Wouldn't doubt it, either.

[Dr Moore]

I kinda doubt that it was all coldly calculated as a means to advance as a church leader. Perhaps the talks of others who were lying about all the great things they did was an additional pressure. But from the summaries I've read of things he said in his family book in 1979, the delusions were in full force, including this plane episode as his stimulus to write the book. If anything, he's toned down as he's never talked about his long visionary interactions with dead church leaders publicly.

What is the line between faith and zealotry?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I kinda doubt that it was all coldly calculated as a means to advance as a church leader. Perhaps the talks of others who were lying about all the great things they did was an additional pressure. But from the summaries I've read of things he said in his family book in 1979, the delusions were in full force, including this plane episode as his stimulus to write the book. If anything, he's toned down as he's never talked about his long visionary interactions with dead church leaders publicly.

What is the line between faith and zealotry?

Well, apparently the line between faith and heresy is facecrime.

- Doc

[Lem]

Now that's ^ what I would call Fact Checking.
Thank you, Dr. Moore.
Your considerable effort in putting this together really helps set the record straight.

Seconded.

I think a number of people have put remarkable effort into this thread, I'm looking at you DrW as well as others, and I'm appreciative of that. These pages document the deceit of the current President of the church.

One can speculate as to why he started telling a tall tale - my baseless speculation would be that he felt his chances of apostleship were hampered by being in a dead end Sunday school calling and by the fact that others, like Dunn, had better anecdotes that were getting them noticed. I reckon he's also a narcissist, everything is all about him. Wendy and Sheri feed it.

I wonder what Sheri Dew and Deseret Book will do, now they know for sure (assuming they didn't before) that the Doors Of Death tale in the Nelson biography is the second* problematic anecdote in the biography they wrote/sold about Nelson?

*The first one was a tale about a man and a woman he met in Korea...introduced Book of Mormon...they were married...joined the Church...millions of kids...spotted her at a Stake Conference in the congregation...yada yada yada...was removed when the people he was talking about let it be known he wasn't telling an accurate story.

If I recall correctly, the version in the book Dew edited was the one that gave the date. I could easily see how Nelson told the story related to the inauguration, she looked up the date to fill out the story and Nelson either forgot he left the day before or didn’t think the actual date mattered when (or even if) he reviewed her editing.

I agree with Chap that this lengthy thread has been helpful. So many ‘faith-promoting’ stories are publicly told by LDS, and so many times, truthfulness seems to be a secondary or even optional condition. When I was in college, I submitted an article to the New Era (? I think that was the name of the youth mag at the time) about an experience at one of the large LDS pageants. A copy editor got in touch with me, said he had made some edits, and wanted me to okay it. When I got the edited version back, to my shock it bore only the slightest resemblance to my original story, and was full of embellishments, exaggerations, and imho outright lies. But it was a better story, just no longer a true one. I refused the edits, the editor got pushy, I withdrew the piece.

It’s very helpful to bring stories like Nelson’s, Dunn’s, and others into the light regularly because these exaggerations seem to be all too acceptable of an approach. I’m sure the LDS church is not alone in this acceptance of exaggeration in the furtherance of faith, but it does seem to really excel at it.