If I read you correctly, you seem to be supporting my thought.
I see it somewhat differently. Because I think about things so much, question everything I really believe in nothing! I can't stay with one thought because I critique it to death. I think those that think less about things may be very content within their own belief system and therefore have no need to question. For instance my mother is pretty much a skeptic of everything outside of her personal philosophy. She has her beliefs and she's fine with those. I on the other hand question everything and have at one point or another believed in the possibility of different things, just because I can't glom onto one thing to believe in.
You quesion, think, explore and therefore it is harder for you to believe in whatever.
Your mother, OTOH, is very comfortable with her beliefs and so doesn't question... she is fine believing.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding. :-)
I think it is often the case that believers (in anything), may question the beliefs of others but not their own beliefs. So long as they are comfortable there is no need to explore. This is not just an LDS phenomenon, in my opinion.
Does that make sense?
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
If I read you correctly, you seem to be supporting my thought.
I see it somewhat differently. Because I think about things so much, question everything I really believe in nothing! I can't stay with one thought because I critique it to death. I think those that think less about things may be very content within their own belief system and therefore have no need to question. For instance my mother is pretty much a skeptic of everything outside of her personal philosophy. She has her beliefs and she's fine with those. I on the other hand question everything and have at one point or another believed in the possibility of different things, just because I can't glom onto one thing to believe in.
You quesion, think, explore and therefore it is harder for you to believe in whatever.
Your mother, OTOH, is very comfortable with her beliefs and so doesn't question... she is fine believing.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding. :-)
I think it is often the case that believers (in anything), may question the beliefs of others but not their own beliefs. So long as they are comfortable there is no need to explore. This is not just an LDS phenomenon, in my opinion.
Does that make sense?
~dancer~
Well I sort of am supporting your initial post. :)
What I should have made clearer was this: When I really believe in nothing, I will believe in anything. I flip flop back and forth. I have no clear thoughts as to what the truth is. It may be this at one point, and this at another. I can't decide... the arguments are so good, how could I?
I find that when I question too much it's hard to believe in anything, yet easy to believe at different times in everything. I hope that explains my point better.
For instance, I'm agnostic and actually bounce between a semblance of belief, total atheism, deism, Buddhism (yes, quite a bit) and just not caring. I would rather actually have a belief to be honest with you instead of looking out for something to make sense and then finding fault with it later.
I can share my personal anecdotal experience regarding how LDS women feel about polygamy, for what it’s worth.
I was a convert at 19, and of course polygamy bothered me. But the missionaries told me that it was only to provide support and families for widows and orphans. That appeased me, although if I had been more alert I would have wondered why a marital contract was necessary for LDS to take care of widows and orphans. And, of course, it was quite incorrect as an answer, albeit a popular one in the church.
I really had no idea until I read Mormon Enigma that polygamy wasn’t about taking care of widows and orphans, and, instead, was a significant part of the LDS’ church’s theology. And, of course, reading about how Joseph Smith carried out polygamy was absolutely nauseating. I was shocked, stunned. Soon thereafter, I also obtained Mormon Polygamy and learned more about it there. By that time my faith was seriously wavering, due to the fact that learning about Joseph Smith’ polygamy brought an old issue back to the surface – when I prayed about the Book of Mormon being “the word of God” (a hopelessly ambiguous phrase I should not have used, but I was 19 and simply repeating what the missionaries taught me), I got a very clear answer. When I prayed about Joseph Smith being a true prophet, I never got an answer. Nothing but dead silence. So I began wondering if, perhaps, Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet after all (I wasn’t at the point, at first, to question the whole ball of wax).
I was so troubled by all of this that it became an obsession. I began talking to whatever LDS women would listen to me and respond, which consisted more of sisters my own age, with young children. In my discussions, a couple of things became very clear. One was that the majority of LDS women (I didn’t talk to men about it) had NO idea of Joseph Smith’ polygamy, much less his polyandry. We all naïvely believe Joseph Smith never actually practiced it due to Emma’s reaction. (ha ha what fools we were). So most were quite shocked to hear about Joseph Smith in particular. (there was one exception, a sister who did, indeed, know all these things and she told me, basically, that “even if the church is not what we once believed it to be, it’s a good place to raise kids”, which is code for: I don’t really believe it anymore.) The second thing that became apparent is that these women generally just could not bring themselves to believe God would make them practice polygamy. Out of all the women I talked to about the subject, only two indicated they would be comfortable practicing it, and they both had clear intimacy issues – they viewed polygamy as a way to get their husband out of their hair. All the others said they believed only the women who WANTED to share their husband in the next life would have to, and they would choose NOT TO. That is how they dealt with the issue, by believing God would exempt them from this practice.
Now some unfortunate women, like myself, were married to men who liked to bring up the fact that they could have other wives in the next life. Did that damage my marriage? Yes, but it was part of his larger dysfunctional personality – he liked to say hurtful, sometimes malicious, things and pretend he was “joking”.
I think that if a woman really, really believed that she would have to share her husband one day it would have to impact her marriage. It was actually Zina Huntington Buell who said that polygamy would only work if the wife did not allow herself to become emotionally attached to her husband, and viewed him only as a cherished guest in her home. That makes sense. This would be how to protect yourself from the hurt. So if a woman believed she’d share her husband one day – would that encourage her to be cautious in regards to how bonded and dependent upon him she allowed herself to become?
I know from my own personal experience, if you think a relationship is going to hurt you, you tend to devise emotional ways to protect yourself from caring about that hurt, or feeling it deeply.
Regarding whether or not LDS are prudes – I have heard more than once that LDS men can be quite vulgar among themselves. My boyfriend was raised as a Mormon, and has shared some of the jokes they used to tell each other. :P I also remember on Z when I finally got FED UP with some of the lewd statements that some of the supposedly upright Mormon men couldn’t resist saying and protested it, calling it “verbal flashing”. Boy was I made fun of by the LDS for that. (although I suspect some must have supported me, I don’t quite recall)
And yes, I think that quite a few of them don’t get enough sex.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:I can share my personal anecdotal experience regarding how LDS women feel about polygamy, for what it’s worth.
I was a convert at 19, and of course polygamy bothered me. But the missionaries told me that it was only to provide support and families for widows and orphans. That appeased me, although if I had been more alert I would have wondered why a marital contract was necessary for LDS to take care of widows and orphans. And, of course, it was quite incorrect as an answer, albeit a popular one in the church.
I have seen that brought up and it doesn't make sense. The other one that gets me is that we are looking at it through modern lenses. Well the people that had issues with the polygamy during the time period must have been seeing it through our modern eyes too? That makes absolutely no sense!
Now some unfortunate women, like myself, were married to men who liked to bring up the fact that they could have other wives in the next life. Did that damage my marriage? Yes, but it was part of his larger dysfunctional personality – he liked to say hurtful, sometimes malicious, things and pretend he was “joking”.
There is evidence of that on this board. I'm sorry that was done to you. It appears there are men that say such things to women to control them... it's unfortunate that they would take something that is suppose to be a spiritual blessing to pain their wives.
I think that if a woman really, really believed that she would have to share her husband one day it would have to impact her marriage. It was actually Zina Huntington Buell who said that polygamy would only work if the wife did not allow herself to become emotionally attached to her husband, and viewed him only as a cherished guest in her home. That makes sense. This would be how to protect yourself from the hurt. So if a woman believed she’d share her husband one day – would that encourage her to be cautious in regards to how bonded and dependent upon him she allowed herself to become?
I absolutly agree. I suppose some women are comfortable with this.
Regarding whether or not LDS are prudes – I have heard more than once that LDS men can be quite vulgar among themselves. My boyfriend was raised as a Mormon, and has shared some of the jokes they used to tell each other. :P I also remember on Z when I finally got FED UP with some of the lewd statements that some of the supposedly upright Mormon men couldn’t resist saying and protested it, calling it “verbal flashing”. Boy was I made fun of by the LDS for that. (although I suspect some must have supported me, I don’t quite recall)
I think that's perfect! "verbal flashing" is precisely what it is!
I find LDS men who joke about polygamy disturbing.
in my opinion, it is NOTHING to joke about. It was/is a horrific, dispicable, cruel practice that speaks to the most primitive and animalistic urges of men while hurting women and children.
Nothing funny about it.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
I find LDS men who joke about polygamy disturbing.
in my opinion, it is NOTHING to joke about. It was/is a horrific, dispicable, cruel practice that speaks to the most primitive and animalistic urges of men while hurting women and children.
Nothing funny about it.
~dancer~
What do you think about women who joke about polygamy?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I'll tell you the "joke" that irritates me no matter who makes it - and it almost always pops up - referencing seeing the pictures of the polygamist wives and then joking that sexual desire could NOT be involved.
It irritates me because the pictures were usually taken later in their lives, when they'd been through the ringer for decades. Many of these women (at least Joseph Smith and BY's wives) were noted to be very attractive women in their youth. How about we all post our pictures when we're at the end of our lives and let everyone joke about how no one could possibly be sexually attracted to us, either?
>: [
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:I'll tell you the "joke" that irritates me no matter who makes it - and it almost always pops up - referencing seeing the pictures of the polygamist wives and then joking that sexual desire could NOT be involved.
It irritates me because the pictures were usually taken later in their lives, when they'd been through the ringer for decades. Many of these women (at least Joseph Smith and BY's wives) were noted to be very attractive women in their youth. How about we all post our pictures when we're at the end of our lives and let everyone joke about how no one could possibly be sexually attracted to us, either?
>: [
What about Mark Twain's take (as found in "Roughing It")?
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
What about Mark Twain's take (as found in "Roughing It")?
that's exactly what I'm talking about. Utah was NOT filled with ugly women. I'd like to see how Mark Twain or these other joksters fair with their "good looks" after living as a polygamist pioneer woman in Utah. (of course, even just plain being a pioneer woman in general was tough)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.