Did Joseph Smith Die in a "shoot out"?

Post by **_karl61** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:24 pm

I guess, there goes the saying -be wise as snakes (don't be sitting in jail drinking wine with a gun in your pocket) and harmless as doves ( don't go out of this life hurting others) but then a low voice from heaven said " I don't know we teach that"

Post by **_Maxrep** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:14 pm

The church obviously has taken care that Josephs last days show him in a positive light. The historical presentation of his death provides only details that helps one conclude he was a martyr. The events that lead to the culmination of an angry mob and his death are not brought to light.

The curious thing is that when Mormons are the ones wielding the guns, there is no urgency for anybody to remember anything! If there is an event in LDS history in regards to violent murder that deserves focus, it is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Cue crickets chirping. Leave it to the church to explain, or not, any gunfight in a manner that suits their needs.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:29 am

Jersey Girl wrote:And 2 groups using guns to fight is a frickin' gunfight.

Did anyone else in Joseph Smith's "group" have a gun, though?

My understanding was that he was the only one with a gun. So again, he and his brother and friends were badly outnumbered, and in prison.

The mob had a huge advantage.

I agree with Jason on this one. When you hear the term "gunfight" or "shoot-out", you think more of even numbers. Whether that is the proper definition or not, that is the image that comes to light, especially after watching as many Westerns as most of us have probably at least been exposed to. LOL

Joseph was murdered, whether he had a gun and attempted to defend himself or not.

I also echo KA's question. I'm curious as to the inconsistency in the telling of the story at Carthage. I see no shame that should exist with the fact that Joseph was armed.

Post by **_karl61** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:39 am

Hey - it's not the groups problem if Joseph brought one gun to a shootout. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:40 am

liz3564 wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:And 2 groups using guns to fight is a frickin' gunfight.

Did anyone else in Joseph Smith's "group" have a gun, though?

My understanding was that he was the only one with a gun. So again, he and his brother and friends were badly outnumbered, and in prison.

The mob had a huge advantage.

I agree with Jason on this one. When you hear the term "gunfight" or "shoot-out", you think more of even numbers. Whether that is the proper definition or not, that is the image that comes to light, especially after watching as many Westerns as most of us have probably at least been exposed to. LOL

Joseph was murdered, whether he had a gun and attempted to defend himself or not.

I also echo KA's question. I'm curious as to the inconsistency in the telling of the story at Carthage. I see no shame that should exist with the fact that Joseph was armed.

My goodness, liz. Can no one get past this? Understand this? It's a matter of simple terminology. It was a gunfight, a shoot out. The circumstances with regards to innocence, what one thinks of, "image" or who was outnumbered by whom, don't matter.

It was a gunfight, a shoot out.

Was JFK killed in a gunfight or shoot out? No, he wasn't armed.

Was Joseph Smith killed in a gunfight or shoot out? Yes, he was armed and fired.

What on earth is the problem with calling it what it was?

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:50 am

Here:

http://i4m.com/think/history/carthage-jail-smith.htm

Was it a gunfight or shootout? Yes.
Was the Smith group outnumbered? Yes and no one disputes that.
Did Joseph Smith die a martyr's death? I don't think so.

Now, I'm done with this.

Post by **_Scottie** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:02 am

Jersey Girl wrote:My goodness, liz. Can no one get past this? Understand this? It's a matter of simple terminology. It was a gunfight, a shoot out. The circumstances with regards to innocence, what one thinks of, "image" or who was outnumbered by whom, don't matter.

It was a gunfight, a shoot out.

Was JFK killed in a gunfight or shoot out? No, he wasn't armed.

Was Joseph Smith killed in a gunfight or shoot out? Yes, he was armed and fired.

What on earth is the problem with calling it what it was?

Did you miss my earlier post??

Post by **_Dakotah** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:18 am

"It is misleading to characterize as a gunfight (implying that the odds were remotely close to even)"

Where is it some kind of rule that a gunfight has to have even odds?

Jesus didn't carry a knife with him on the cross and Joseph didn't go to his death 'calm as a summers morn'. He went down trying to kill his assailants. Not a 'fair fight' by any view, but it was a gunfight.

Post by **_Trevor** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:22 am

Dakotah wrote:Jesus didn't carry a knife with him on the cross...

Too bad. That would have made for one bitchin' movie scene.

Post by **_malkie** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:23 am

Trevor wrote:
thestyleguy wrote:some would rather have Robert De Niro and Val Kilmer on their side

Now, here is a good question: which of the action heroes would best fit the part of Joseph Smith in our action-thriller remake of Showdown in Carthage?

Having read a couple of the books and seen one of the movies, I would like to have Jason Bourne on my side. Don't you think that he might "best fit the part of Joseph Smith in our action-thriller remake of Showdown in Carthage?[/quote]"?

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.