Do they know it's not true?

[_BishopRic]

Exactly! Of course each GA is different, and I do know of one Emeritus that has transitioned to a different belief, but I think another factor is the second anointing I'm sure they've all had.

Interesting. What exactly are you talking about? What "different belief"?

He's an interesting guy. He wants to remain anonymous since he's still on the payroll, but is quite open to some who know him. His belief is a sort of New Age approach. He's a "Course in Miracles" follower, and believes that all religions have some truth to them.

"Payroll"? That's another can of worms. Emeritus gets paid?

Emeritus is "old", with health issues that make it impossible for them to serve, at least as far as I understand it. Unless it's also a place to put old guys who no longer toe the party line out to pasture.

Yes, they get paid. The church actually has pretty good benefits for their employees. I'm quite sure they use the "emeritus" status for different purposes.

[_charity]

I believe the GAs believe that it's true. I believe that GBH believed it was true. It's the same as Charity believing it's true. Charity knows that Joseph Smith committed many acts that would make most people look like scumbags, yet she views it all within a worldview where the Truth of the church is axiomatic and not subject to serious review or consideration. Hence, it's taken for granted that Joseph Smith's acts were somehow, someway, in accordance with God's Will, and therefore A-OK. Nobody here can doubt that Charity sees things this way, with her faith goggles firmly welded to her face.

You talk like there are two types of world views. Yours, which is the correct one, and everyone elsee's different from yours which are wrong. And who told you that you were right? And please don't bore us with the all scientific, jsut the facts ma'am, logic, and the pwers of the human mind garbage.

And one thing that shows your fallibility is that you think you know what is in my mind, which you plainly don't.

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what charity knows.

Those of us who are not blinded by the foolishness of men know that President Hinckley was a true prophet, who was filled with the exuberance of a good life, blessed by God, and knowing very clearly where he stood in the workings of God's kingdom on earth. He readiated peace. He was not the sad little man of your description, sethbag.

[_Runtu]

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what charity knows.

Those of us who are not blinded by the foolishness of men know that President Hinckley was a true prophet, who was filled with the exuberance of a good life, blessed by God, and knowing very clearly where he stood in the workings of God's kingdom on earth. He readiated peace. He was not the sad little man of your description, sethbag.

This just shows that Seth was right. You do indeed see it the way he described. Imagine that.

[_Who Knows]

You talk like there are two types of world views. Yours, which is the correct one, and everyone elsee's different from yours which are wrong. And who told you that you were right? And please don't bore us with the all scientific, jsut the facts ma'am, logic, and the pwers of the human mind garbage.

And one thing that shows your fallibility is that you think you know what is in my mind, which you plainly don't.

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what charity knows.

Those of us who are not blinded by the foolishness of men know that President Hinckley was a true prophet, who was filled with the exuberance of a good life, blessed by God, and knowing very clearly where he stood in the workings of God's kingdom on earth. He readiated peace. He was not the sad little man of your description, sethbag.

Thanks for the chuckle on this gloomy/windy/snowy day. There are a few sig-line-worthy quotes in there. lol.

[_antishock8]

Well, I would like to think that an adult who is in charge of a billion dollar mega-church had enough sense to see it for what it is: A billion dollar mega-church.

There's a reason why he didn't say, unequivocally, he was a prophet.

There's a reason why he waffled on the Man-can-become-God doctrine.

There's a reason why he hung EVERYTHING on the First Vision account.

It's because he knows it's a fraud.

However.

He most likely believed the Church to be a sum total positive in people's lives. He most likely believed the Church to be a good thing for families, a good vehicle for the human condition, and therefore he managed its affairs with a clear conscience.

To him, the ends justified the means and that's that...

...

...

... That's that.

[_Runtu]

Well, I would like to think that an adult who is in charge of a billion dollar mega-church had enough sense to see it for what it is: A billion dollar mega-church.

There's a reason why he didn't say, unequivocally, he was a prophet.

There's a reason why he waffled on the Man-can-become-God doctrine.

There's a reason why he hung EVERYTHING on the First Vision account.

It's because he knows it's a fraud.

However.

He most likely believed the Church to be a sum total positive in people's lives. He most likely believed the Church to be a good thing for families, a good vehicle for the human condition, and therefore he managed its affairs with a clear conscience.

To him, the ends justified the means and that's that...

...

...

... That's that.

Hi, antishock. Nice to see you here.

John

[_Sethbag]

You talk like there are two types of world views. Yours, which is the correct one, and everyone elsee's different from yours which are wrong. And who told you that you were right? And please don't bore us with the all scientific, just the facts ma'am, logic, and the pwers of the human mind garbage.

There aren't two world views, Charity. There are about 7 billion. And yours, and mine, are just two of them. I'm not positive that my worldview is right, but I'm quite sure that yours isn't. It's not either "The World" or "Mormonism". There is no "The World". There is a giant bucket of worldviews, and Mormonism is just a drop in it, and a very insignificant drop at that.

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what Charity knows.

I'm sorry that you've been so mistaken. Joseph Smith was not a good and moral man. He was an immoral man, and took advantage of a great many people. He's ultimately responsible for providing you with a worldview which deludes you and keeps you incapable of viewing the world and the universe as they really are. There are lots of other religions and worldviews that do that as well. Yours is just one of them. You won't understand this, but perhaps someday you shall. And if not, then that's just the way the universe goes. There were plenty of island tribesmen who died not knowing that the volcano god wasn't real either, or that there wasn't any Juju up the mountain.

[_Runtu]

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what charity knows.

This statement encapsulates why I will never go back to Mormonism. In charity's mind, there is not even the remotest possibility that Joseph Smith did something wrong or immoral; nope, anything that he did that appears immoral or unethical is "either misunderstood or false." (Who says Mormons don't believe in prophetic infallibility, by the way? Apparently, at least one does.)

The problem here is that you have to take things that are obviously wrong (promising exaltation to families in exchange for teenage daughters, marrying other women behind your wife's back, and marrying other men's wives behind the husbands' backs, lying to the public and to the church about polygamy, etc.) and say, "I don't care what the facts are. I simply won't allow myself to believe anything wrong of the beloved prophet." And so you swallow your conscience and defend what deep inside you know is wrong. LDS scriptures talk about being "past feeling" and having a "seared" conscience. And in the statement from charity, that's exactly what we see.

I will not sacrifice my conscience to any man or belief system. If I'm damned for refusing to countenance evil, so be it.

[_charity]

I know that Joseph Smith was a good and moral man. And when there is something that appears to conflict with that, it is either misunderstood or false. I know that Joseph died a martyr's death, approved by God. That is what charity knows.

This statement encapsulates why I will never go back to Mormonism. In charity's mind, there is not even the remotest possibility that Joseph Smith did something wrong or immoral; nope, anything that he did that appears immoral or unethical is "either misunderstood or false." (Who says Mormons don't believe in prophetic infallibility, by the way? Apparently, at least one does.)

The problem here is that you have to take things that are obviously wrong (promising exaltation to families in exchange for teenage daughters, marrying other women behind your wife's back, and marrying other men's wives behind the husbands' backs, lying to the public and to the church about polygamy, etc.) and say, "I don't care what the facts are. I simply won't allow myself to believe anything wrong of the beloved prophet." And so you swallow your conscience and defend what deep inside you know is wrong. LDS scriptures talk about being "past feeling" and having a "seared" conscience. And in the statement from charity, that's exactly what we see.

I will not sacrifice my conscience to any man or belief system. If I'm damned for refusing to countenance evil, so be it.

Your problem is not your conscience. It is that you have believed lies and misinterpretations and things of God that haven't been explained. And it is that you are now so firmly backed into the corner of defending your loss of testimony that you will not even admit that your understanding might be wrong.

When you get on the other side, and your mind is cleared of the veil, you will be very sad that you have gotten yourself into such a recalcitrant position.

Joseph said he wasn't perfect. He got in trouble with God many times and had to repent. He did not think he was infallible. I don't think he was infallible. Too bad you think your understanding is.

[_Runtu]

Your problem is not your conscience. It is that you have believed lies and misinterpretations and things of God that haven't been explained. And it is that you are now so firmly backed into the corner of defending your loss of testimony that you will not even admit that your understanding might be wrong.

When you get on the other side, and your mind is cleared of the veil, you will be very sad that you have gotten yourself into such a recalcitrant position.

Joseph said he wasn't perfect. He got in trouble with God many times and had to repent. He did not think he was infallible. I don't think he was infallible. Too bad you think your understanding is.

You know I still like you, even when you say hurtful and absurd things like this. Who are you to tell me what my conscience tells me or how "recalcitrant" my conclusions are about the church? And telling me that I think my understanding is infallible is uncalled for. I did what you do for years: I gave Joseph Smith a pass for his behavior. And, no, I am not relying on lies. I wish I were.