FLDS - 31 of 53 girls pregnant and/or with children

[_Gazelam]

Polygamy is a throwback to a very primitive animalistic form of sexual selection. Rather than embracing an enlightened and evolved type of partnership that brings forth intimacy, care, connections, depth, and deep love, it removes it all in place of turning men into sperm donors and women into chattel.

The exact opposite of what is holy, decent, civilized, caring, compassionate, or loving.

~dancer~

No wonder God called it the Abomination.

I can list a large number of Biblical Holy Men of God who practiced polygamy. For instance:

2 Samuel 12:8

8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

The context of the verse is that of God, speaking through a prophet (Nathan), calling out David for David's sin of taking another man's wife (Bathsheba, wife of Uriah the Hittite), which is adultery indeed, and for setting up the death of Uriah the Hittite to try to hide David's sin.

Also, at the point in time of this situation, David had already been married to at least seven known-named wives. (1_Samuel 18:27, 25:42-43, 2_Samuel 3:2-5.)

But, in this verse 8 (above), God was not condemning David for all his wives! In fact, this verse 8 shows God Himself actually saying that HE was the One Who had GIVEN David His wives.

If God was against David's polygamy, He certainly would not have said that He had GIVEN David his wives.

But the LORD did not stop there. That verse 8 shows that the Lord took it even one step further than that! The LORD God even went on further to say that if David had wanted more wives, the Lord Himself said that He would have given David even more!

It was only because David had sinned, in committing adultery by taking another man's wife, and then causing that man's death to try to hide David's sin, that the Lord was calling him out through the prophet Nathan. There was no sin in the polygamy at all.

[_Gazelam]

This is all very saddening. :(

I feel the same way whenever I read Harmony and Truth Dancers posts.

[_moksha]

If they had any legitimate claim to the Priesthood keys that might mean something.

They do. John Taylor laid his hands on the heads of three or so men in St. George and ordained them to continue the practice of polygamy should the mainstream church ever give it up. "Allred" was the last name of one of them; I can't remember the others' names.

The record of this commission is in the possession of the First Presidency.

What is known of this record? Can it be substantiated in any way?

[_truth dancer]

This is all very saddening. :(

I feel the same way whenever I read Harmony and Truth Dancers posts.

Hi Gaz,

Yes it is hard to face the reality of what has occurred in the name of God. Much easier to pretend all is well, than take into your heart the actuality of the cruelty and horror perpetuated by power hungry men.

I've shed lots of tears as I feel the sorrow and heartache of girls being raped by grown men, of women whose husbands took new "wives", of men who are not the elite who were cast out from their community, of children with an absent father, of fathers who turned into animals.

Polygamy truly is an abomination.

~dancer~

Also, just an FYI (smile), I find it totally amazing that some folks try to justify cruelty and horror with the excuse that men, three thousand years ago were also cruel. Seriously... what is up with this? Tribal nomadic men owned girls and women, raped them, bought and sold them, treated them as chattel and somehow this is supposed to make cruelty toward girls and women fine and dandy in modern civilized society? I don't think so. :-)

[_Gazelam]

TD,

I find it totally amazing that some folks try to justify cruelty and horror with the excuse that men, three thousand years ago were also cruel.

There is no question that polygamy was used in an abusive fashion in the past. I am not questioning this. Its happening in the FLDS church today. That does not mean that it cannot be done in an appropriate manner as well.

There are monogamous marriages that are abusive and cruel. Do we disscount those as well?

It is an undisputed fact that God condoned and approved polygamy from the very beginning. Your lack of faith and understanding does not change this. And remember, it was Christ who was the God that spoke to Nathan.

[_Yoda]

Gaz, please describe for me how you visualize an ideal polygamous marriage. How do you visualize the concept of truly partnering with more than one woman? I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about the full-on complex intimacy involved with being a righteous couple.

I haven't been able to wrap my head around it, because, quite frankly, the visualization and concept goes completely against the grain of the Proclamation of the Family.

This is not a "trap" question. I'm asking your thoughts as one LDS member to another.

[_Mercury]

Gaz, please describe for me how you visualize an ideal polygamous marriage. How do you visualize the concept of truly partnering with more than one woman? I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about the full-on complex intimacy involved with being a righteous couple.

I haven't been able to wrap my head around it, because, quite frankly, the visualization and concept goes completely against the grain of the Proclamation of the Family.

This is not a "trap" question. I'm asking your thoughts as one LDS member to another.

This is how I imagine it :)

[_ludwigm]

Gaz, please describe for me how you visualize an ideal polygamous marriage. How do you visualize the concept of truly partnering with more than one woman? I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about the full-on complex intimacy involved with being a righteous couple.
I haven't been able to wrap my head around it, because, quite frankly, the visualization and concept goes completely against the grain of the Proclamation of the Family.
This is not a "trap" question. I'm asking your thoughts as one LDS member to another.

This is how I imagine it :)
[img]picture%20of%20four%20people%20at%20the%20same%20age[/img]

You imagine it wrong. The guy most be older, the other three less important person on the pic must be younger.
And where are the children? In the age shown, there must be 9 of them. Or 15.

[_truth dancer]

TD,

I find it totally amazing that some folks try to justify cruelty and horror with the excuse that men, three thousand years ago were also cruel.

There is no question that polygamy was used in an abusive fashion in the past. I am not questioning this. Its happening in the FLDS church today. That does not mean that it cannot be done in an appropriate manner as well.

Well, if folks want to revert to animals, use women as chattel, and if they think primitive mating strategies are appropriate for civilized human beings... (sigh).

There are monogamous marriages that are abusive and cruel. Do we disscount those as well?

Yeah, they are an abomination as well.

It is an undisputed fact that God condoned and approved polygamy from the very beginning. Your lack of faith and understanding does not change this. And remember, it was Christ who was the God that spoke to Nathan.

Yeah, like it is an indisputable fact that Allah wanted men to fly a plane into the Twin Towers.

Your lack of faith in Allah does not change the facts.

:-(

Gaz, because you believe something doesn't make it fact.

Seriously, men have been blaming God for their abominations since the beginning of history. It is disgusting.

~dancer~

[_harmony]

If they had any legitimate claim to the Priesthood keys that might mean something.

They do. John Taylor laid his hands on the heads of three or so men in St. George and ordained them to continue the practice of polygamy should the mainstream church ever give it up. "Allred" was the last name of one of them; I can't remember the others' names.

The record of this commission is in the possession of the First Presidency.

We haven't heard much from the Allred's or the Kingston's or the TLC since the FLDS took over the limelight. What's going on with them?