guy sajer wrote:.... what kind of persons the staunch defenders of the Mormon faith would be were the restraints of the rule of law removed, a la some kind of Mormon Theocracy. Would Midgley willingly become an enforcer of the "truth," would Peterson become a snitch, would Schryver actively engage in ferreting out nonbelievers and bringing them to "justice" and so on? .....
As far as I can tell ... Lou Midgley, Daniel Peterson and other apologists have had plenty of opportunities to "out" plenty of critics, and have not done so. It seems like their policy is that the critics should self-report themselves. Several times while living in Utah I had lunch with a successful businessman in his 40's that lived in the Salt Lake area that posted online under the nickname SLDrone. He exchanged plenty of barbs with Peterson on ZLMB. I'm pretty sure that Peterson figured out exactly who he was. And if Peterson had reported him then SLDrone would've certainly been excommunicated. Instead SLDrone's eventual termination to church membership came in the office of M. Russell Ballard when SLDrone pulled out his resignation letter during one of their regular interviews that took place a couple years AFTER SLDrone started posting on RfM.
I think the apologists/defenders of Mormonism are being more careful about not going out of their way to upset the lives of individuals. We live in the internet age where their actions are easier to track. They cannot get away easily with any corrupt actions. IMHO sunlight is a great disinfectant. It keeps us more honest.
guy sajer wrote:.... what kind of persons the staunch defenders of the Mormon faith would be were the restraints of the rule of law removed, a la some kind of Mormon Theocracy. Would Midgley willingly become an enforcer of the "truth," would Peterson become a snitch, would Schryver actively engage in ferreting out nonbelievers and bringing them to "justice" and so on? .....
As far as I can tell ... Lou Midgley, Daniel Peterson and other apologists have had plenty of opportunities to "out" plenty of critics, and have not done so. It seems like their policy is that the critics should self-report themselves. Several times while living in Utah I had lunch with a successful businessman in his 40's that lived in the Salt Lake area that posted online under the nickname SLDrone. He exchanged plenty of barbs with Peterson on ZLMB. I'm pretty sure that Peterson figured out exactly who he was. And if Peterson had reported him then SLDrone would've certainly been excommunicated. Instead SLDrone's eventual termination to church membership came in the office of M. Russell Ballard when SLDrone pulled out his resignation letter during one of their regular interviews that took place a couple years AFTER SLDrone started posting on RfM.
Holy cow... You know SLDrone? That guy is a legend in Internet Mormonism! I noticed that he registered to this board some time ago. I'd like to see him validate your report.
Anyways, DCP and his pals have definitely engaged in "outing" of critics. (As has the Church itself.) A key example of this would be The Good Professor's tattling on GoodK to Goodk's father. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the poster called Hellmut (sp?) had his posting behavior "outed" to his SP, who then proceeded to threaten him with disciplinary action. Ray A (who is "sort of" an apologist) has said that he would like to "out" me, as have DCP, Coggins7, and rcrocket. The ill-tempered poster named "Opie Rockwell" said that he wanted to see Harmony face ecclesiastical punishment, and that he hoped she'd be excommunicated.
alex71va@yahoo.com wrote: Lou Midgley told me that when he didn't understand an issue that he'd put it up on a shelf to examine at a later date and thus he could carry on in church. I don't have a mental shelf so I keep the issues in my hands and just deal with them and live my life accordingly. I do sincerely believe that Lou Midgley does have a testimony of Mormonism.
That's very interesting that Midgley would actually admit that he "buries his head in the sand" when he confronts a problematic facet of Mormonism. Usually, apologists would describe such a thing as a stereotype concocted by antis. And yet, here we have the man himself admitting it.
rcrocket wrote:You're wrong. I've never outed anyone, including GoodK. His dad already knew the details when he called me to discuss his daughter.
Do you fear "outing"? Do you think that the postings of Rollo, you and Harmony would really mean anything to you/their bishops?
What a dumb post, Bob. Further, you are twisting what I said. Nowhere did I say that you "outed" GoodK, although you did very clearly threaten to do that.
Further, "outings" can have implications well beyond simple ecclesiastical punishment. Why do you think there has been such a big hullaballoo over this Keyes episode? It's precisely because Keyes is terrified of having his doubts "outed" to his wife and so forth.
guy sajer wrote:.... what kind of persons the staunch defenders of the Mormon faith would be were the restraints of the rule of law removed, a la some kind of Mormon Theocracy. Would Midgley willingly become an enforcer of the "truth," would Peterson become a snitch, would Schryver actively engage in ferreting out nonbelievers and bringing them to "justice" and so on? .....
As far as I can tell ... Lou Midgley, Daniel Peterson and other apologists have had plenty of opportunities to "out" plenty of critics, and have not done so. It seems like their policy is that the critics should self-report themselves. Several times while living in Utah I had lunch with a successful businessman in his 40's that lived in the Salt Lake area that posted online under the nickname SLDrone. He exchanged plenty of barbs with Peterson on ZLMB. I'm pretty sure that Peterson figured out exactly who he was. And if Peterson had reported him then SLDrone would've certainly been excommunicated. Instead SLDrone's eventual termination to church membership came in the office of M. Russell Ballard when SLDrone pulled out his resignation letter during one of their regular interviews that took place a couple years AFTER SLDrone started posting on RfM.
Holy cow... You know SLDrone? That guy is a legend in Internet Mormonism! I noticed that he registered to this board some time ago. I'd like to see him validate your report.
Anyways, DCP and his pals have definitely engaged in "outing" of critics. (As has the Church itself.) A key example of this would be The Good Professor's tattling on GoodK to Goodk's father. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the poster called Hellmut (sp?) had his posting behavior "outed" to his SP, who then proceeded to threaten him with disciplinary action. Ray A (who is "sort of" an apologist) has said that he would like to "out" me, as have DCP, Coggins7, and rcrocket. The ill-tempered poster named "Opie Rockwell" said that he wanted to see Harmony face ecclesiastical punishment, and that he hoped she'd be excommunicated.
I don't prefer to see anyone excommunicated, for what it's worth.
I believe Good K's father already knew Good K's standing, and that DCP informed him that Good K was mocking him online, not that Good K was being "outed" as a disbeliever.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
rcrocket wrote:You're wrong. I've never outed anyone, including GoodK. His dad already knew the details when he called me to discuss his daughter.
Do you fear "outing"? Do you think that the postings of Rollo, you and Harmony would really mean anything to you/their bishops?
What a dumb post, Bob. Further, you are twisting what I said. Nowhere did I say that you "outed" GoodK, although you did very clearly threaten to do that.
Further, "outings" can have implications well beyond simple ecclesiastical punishment. Why do you think there has been such a big hullaballoo over this Keyes episode? It's precisely because Keyes is terrified of having his doubts "outed" to his wife and so forth.
He'd probably be even more terrified if there were any substantial doubt. Luckily, he cleared that up. Some call him a liar, others believe his words.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
rcrocket wrote:You're wrong. I've never outed anyone, including GoodK. His dad already knew the details when he called me to discuss his daughter.
Do you fear "outing"? Do you think that the postings of Rollo, you and Harmony would really mean anything to you/their bishops?
What a dumb post, Bob. Further, you are twisting what I said. Nowhere did I say that you "outed" GoodK, although you did very clearly threaten to do that.
Further, "outings" can have implications well beyond simple ecclesiastical punishment. Why do you think there has been such a big hullaballoo over this Keyes episode? It's precisely because Keyes is terrified of having his doubts "outed" to his wife and so forth.
Can you not answer my question(s)?
I reiterate my challenge to go mano a mano with you in a debate on a topic of your choice dealing with Church history. Your silly rejoinder to me about debating me about something I have said in the past is rejected.
Mister Scratch wrote:That's very interesting that Midgley would actually admit that he "buries his head in the sand" when he confronts a problematic facet of Mormonism.
That's not exactly how Midgley presented his approach to handling difficult issues. He simply said that he knows that some problems are difficult to resolve. He feels that the answer may take decades to find. So rather than dwell on them he sticks the up on the shelf to take down at a later date. Personally my approach would be to get all the Deacons Quorums and Beehives across Mormondom busy researching to find the answers to these problems. This could make an excellent Eagle Scout Service Project :)