Is homosexuality a choice?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

But the same hold true even if sexuality is NOT biologically determined, so your point is moot. Actually, even if some sexual deviance is indeed biological in origin, we can still prohibit it (pedophilia) when we judge it by the criteria of what rights are violated because of it (children should be protected from manipulation by adult predators


You haven't demonstrated this point philosophically as of yet. All of your prohibitions, including those regarding adult/child sex, are nothing, outside of an overarching value system not bounded by purely human

cultural dispositions, but a "yuck" factor imposed by the dominant groups in society upon such behavior. That we can prohibit such behavior no one is arguing. However, the entire Gay Rights movement's arguments, and those of the cultural Left in support of them, are arguments grounded in moral and cultural relativism. Neither side here, the Left or the Right, would take you seriously Asbestos, because you offer no guiding set of values except Machiavellian ones based upon majority rule and the majority's opinion of what is acceptable and what is not. Conservatives seek to preserve the best of traditional sexual norms. The Left seeks a complete redefinition. Simply throwing up one's hands and deciding to prohibit or not prohibit, outside of the body of value judgments upon which such decisions could be made, is pointless, and purely utilitarian (while the issue is fundamentally moral and, ultimately, metaphysical, grounded in ultimate values).


Some societal norms should not be enforced by rule of law. Religion is one of them. Let people choose whether to believe in God. Let people choose what sort of sexual lifestyle they want (so long as they only do so with consenting adults). Again, I'm not for homosexual marriage, but I think government should get out of marriage entirely and only concern itself with the rights of children and parents without making government give a special stamp of approval to certain adult relationships.


The problem here, Asbestos, is that the state, both legislatively and judicially, is already enmeshed up to its ears on the issue by ignoring the Constitution and imposing a massive defacto redefinition of the term "marriage" on society while vast majorities of Americans, liberal and conservative, have been clear in poll after poll that this is going too far.

In some things, we cannot simply "get the government out" of this or that. that's a nice sounding Libertarian sentiment, but in practical application can come up quite short. Simply allowing "Gay" marriage, by definition, redefines and reorients the entire concept...precisely what the homosexual movement desires.

Political pacifism can bring about, in many cases, the same outcomes as aggressive activism. All it requires, as Burke noted, is that the people such social changes will effect do nothing.

The state should, in its negative power to protect and guarantee the unalienable rights and liberties of its citizens, prohibit homosexual marriage, as homosexual "marriage" is ultimately incongruent with a functioning society based upon those principles.

The state needs to guarantee the definition of marriage just as it needs to guarantee the right to assembly or speech. The society, to continue as a self governing free society, depends upon them. Upon the meaning of words hinges the fate of a nation or people. Marriage is not a "right" in the sense of the others, but it is, as a cultural institution, pivotal to the continuation of a free, civil social order.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Post by _antishock8 »

Image
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Ren
_Emeritus
Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

Droopy wrote:This is, even if not stated in those precise terms, the position of most liberals here

...and here we have your 'get out of jail free card'.
Even if not stated in those precise terms!

Translation: "I'm entitled to make up others arguments for them... Aren't I?! Surely I am?! For I am COGGINS!"

the public consumption Gay Rights movement

Who cares about the Gay Rights movement! I made my own mind up completely independently of any 'gay rights movement'. If only you had such autonomy of thought!

You have a great deal of homework to do at NARTH and other websites, before debating this issue.

...this statement would have some weight, if what comes next actually points out what I stated incorrectly. Let's see what you can come up with...

No one there has suggested anything for reparative therapy other than results among a minority of those seeking change, all of whom are, of course, self selected.

I never said that NARTH claimed any better 'reorientation results' than those I described.

Opps - strawman #1

he APA has recently been much less hostile to the idea of reparateive therapy (as the empirical evidence and ethical considerations has forced them to be) and has welcomed further exploration in the field, reversing a historically hostile position.

I never claimed anything different, and I'm not opposed to investigation into reorientation therapies for those that actively desire them!. Unlike you - Coggins - I'm a true libertarian - not one that sticks feathers up his butt and 'acts' like a chicken.

Opps - strawman #2

What this does show is that homosexuality, in contradiction to homosexual rights activist's claims, is seen by many as in conflict with their own values, which in many cases precipitates a search for strategies of change.

I fully agree with this Coggins! Of course some homosexuals don't want to be homosexuals! Why the heck would I disagree with this?

Opps - strawman #3.

If it is reasonable to perceive BDSM, the desire to have sex with multiple partners (at the same time), to role play, or to be sexually stimulated by children or animals, as ultimatle within the realm of free agency

You can't discuss this issue sensibly. At all. This is demonstrated in the above sentence.

Adults do not get to do whatever they want to do to children in the name of 'free agency'. This is libertarian basics 101. And you want to convince the rest of us that you desire an 'educated, philosophically sophisticated' discussion on these matters?!

Animals also have rights - whether you or anybody else acknowledges them or not.

All other activities between consenting adults are not to be placed in the same sphere as child abuse and animal abuse.
But of course, neo-cons have never been libertarians. They just use the term as a punch line when it suits them.

Nobody is talking about forcing homosexuals into therapy

When did I ever even approach the idea of forcing anybody into therapy?! As my own idea, or anybody elses idea?!

Please provide the quote where I did. You won't find it, because I never did.

I don't blame you for taking the 'make up my argument for me' route though. Beggars can't be choosers when it comes to how they attempt to tackle an opposing argument that they simply can't tackle in an honest manner...

For those with little or no motivation to effect such change, no success in being claimed.

Completely incorrect. The people in the NARTH study I referenced were all volunteers. They ALL wanted to rid themselves of their homosexual drives. NONE of them fit your charge of having 'no motivation' to effect such change. NONE of them. You have no data to make such a claim. You state such because making completely false claims is all you have at this point...


Coggins - you will eventually slink out of this thread, just as you do every other thread that forces you to paddle past the shallow end of the pool. For example, when you bombastically declared you knew what the scientific terms 'law' and 'theory' meant - you actually had no clue what they really meant. This was demonstrated clearly as the thread progressed. When you were corrected, you didn't have the character to actually admit you had gotten it wrong. Instead, you just toddled out of the the thread without a word.

You will do so here as well. Because you have nothing. You've attacked nothing but strawmen. If you want to visit a webiste where the arguments you've listed above ARE being made, then by all means do so - and have a whale of a time refuting them.

But they aren't being made here - so I'm afraid you're bang out of luck...
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Droopy wrote: Neither side here, the Left or the Right, would take you seriously Asbestos, because you offer no guiding set of values except Machiavellian ones based upon majority rule and the majority's opinion of what is acceptable and what is not. Conservatives seek to preserve the best of traditional sexual norms.


And where have the conservatives proven that "the best of traditional sexual norms" (whatever that means) is philosophically right or justifiable, or even logical, for that matter? I once pointed out to Droopy that his argument is based on the logical fallacy known as the Naturalistic Fallacy---i.e., this is what "nature" intended vis-a-vis marriage and family, therefore it must be ethically correct! He fled the scene after this. Later, he came back and tried to maintain that, since the conservative position has its basis in Judeo-Christian beliefs, and since Judeo-Christian beliefs are "extra-logical," that his argument is somehow "immune" to a logic-based critique.

The Left seeks a complete redefinition. Simply throwing up one's hands and deciding to prohibit or not prohibit, outside of the body of value judgments upon which such decisions could be made, is pointless, and purely utilitarian (while the issue is fundamentally moral and, ultimately, metaphysical, grounded in ultimate values).


Translation: "Because my position is metaphysical, you cannot critique it using logic."


In some things, we cannot simply "get the government out" of this or that. that's a nice sounding Libertarian sentiment, but in practical application can come up quite short. Simply allowing "Gay" marriage, by definition, redefines and reorients the entire concept...precisely what the homosexual movement desires.


How does it "redefine and reorient the entire concept"? This should be interesting to hear.... I'm interested in learning why Coggins thinks that all a marriage amounts to is "man+woman".
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Post by _asbestosman »

Droopy wrote:You haven't demonstrated this point philosophically as of yet. All of your prohibitions, including those regarding adult/child sex, are nothing, outside of an overarching value system not bounded by purely human

cultural dispositions, but a "yuck" factor imposed by the dominant groups in society upon such behavior.

Sure, our moral indignation at abuse might be termed a "yuck" factor at a fundamental level. I would argue that the same holds true with stealing, murder and torture. One can easily say that all those things are wrong based on the Golden rule or the Categorical Imperitive--take a pick. That's my point. It doesn't matter if fundamentally both the Golden Rule and Categorical Imperitive are based on human judgments about what they do or do not wish to allow.

Neither side here, the Left or the Right, would take you seriously Asbestos, because you offer no guiding set of values except Machiavellian ones based upon majority rule and the majority's opinion of what is acceptable and what is not.

I would be more than happy to believe that assertion coming from somone other than you. I don't think anyone here takes you seriously at all. Furthermore I have explained above why I don't think my values are fundamentally Machiavellian. I believe those values can be derived from the Golden Rule (you don't really think Jesus was machiavellian, do you?).

Simply allowing "Gay" marriage, by definition, redefines and reorients the entire concept...precisely what the homosexual movement desires.

I do not wish to have the government allow or sanction "Gay" marriage. One who uses pretentious words would hopefully have the reading comprhension skills to have grasped that (unless he is merely using a thesaurus).
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

As usual, Phunk cannot construct a coherent argument or even follow the incoherent one he did create. No point in pursuing him further on this thread. Indeed, it appears, in perusing his post a second time, that he neither understands what he's talking about nor what I'm talking about, which makes a substantial portion of his post pointless.

A couple other points. I do not claim to be a Libertarian but a libertarian conservative, combining aspects of both (as the late William Buckley did). There are specific aspects of Libertarianism, particularly in its more extreme forms (Rothbardian, and some areas of the Austrian school), that I do not agree with in any manner, even if I might be partial to the sentiments that animate them.

The second is this:

Animals also have rights - whether you or anybody else acknowledges them or not.


This places Phunk quite cleanly outside any possible serious discourse, as it indicates a mind incapacitated and immobilized by ideology and fantasy, and hostile to deep, integrative thought.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Ren
_Emeritus
Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

Droopy wrote:As usual, Phunk cannot construct a coherent argument or even follow the incoherent one he did create.

...and as I told you, you will slink out of this thread without actually addressing the points made. You are doing it already...
Let me give you a hint. Saying "Person X can't say anything sensible. Neh neh neh neh" isn't an argument.

...you can cut the exit speech short anytime ya like...

Droopy wrote:I do not claim to be a Libertarian but a libertarian conservative

You claim to use the term 'libertarian' anywhere in the description of your political / moral outlook.
It's akin to someone calling themselves a 'sadistic pacifist' It's utter nonsense.


asbestosman wrote:I don't think anyone here takes you seriously at all.

Someone give asb the 'telling it like it is' medal of excellence!
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

And where have the conservatives proven that "the best of traditional sexual norms" (whatever that means) is philosophically right or justifiable, or even logical, for that matter?



Proven? Its in the mountain of social science evidence that's been gathered since the eighties Scratch, the material you, as usual, haven't read. Beyond this, its still a perennial and ongoing argument, as ideologues and philosophers disagree on the meaning of the evidence, as well as upon first principles.


I once pointed out to Droopy that his argument is based on the logical fallacy known as the Naturalistic Fallacy---i.e., this is what "nature" intended vis-a-vis marriage and family, therefore it must be ethically correct! He fled the scene after this. Later, he came back and tried to maintain that, since the conservative position has its basis in Judeo-Christian beliefs, and since Judeo-Christian beliefs are "extra-logical," that his argument is somehow "immune" to a logic-based critique.


My confidence in your reconstruction of my argument here is minimal, or course. Suffice it to say, it wasn't nearly as simplistic as you make it out to be (but, as you seem capable of ony the most simplitic or arguments, your versions of other's arguments seem quite, well, natural).

To be clear, I have never made the claim that the "traditional" family is what "nature intended". This is by the design and decree of God, the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ. It is part of the Gospel plan, and optimum for our progression and happiness, deviation from which brings negative consequences, and the farther the deviation, the greater the consequences involved.

Quote:
The Left seeks a complete redefinition. Simply throwing up one's hands and deciding to prohibit or not prohibit, outside of the body of value judgments upon which such decisions could be made, is pointless, and purely utilitarian (while the issue is fundamentally moral and, ultimately, metaphysical, grounded in ultimate values).



Translation: "Because my position is metaphysical, you cannot critique it using logic."


You probably should have engaged my point above substantively, but instead, as usual, you threw a dirty snowball and ran away. Typical.


How does it "redefine and reorient the entire concept"? This should be interesting to hear.... I'm interested in learning why Coggins thinks that all a marriage amounts to is "man+woman".


Yes, it is interesting, and, as I've been over and over and over my argument here at length on other threads, go dig them up and reorient yourself. Your quite good at digging up old posts it seems, at least when you want to assassinate character. Let's see if you can dig up something for some other purpose. Say, a serious philosophical discussion.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

You claim to use the term 'libertarian' anywhere in the description of your political / moral outlook.
It's akin to someone calling themselves a 'sadistic pacifist' It's utter nonsense.



Hmmmm, Buckley didn't think so.

And what of the libertarian socialists? They don't seem to think so either.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Ren
_Emeritus
Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

Droopy wrote:Hmmmm, Buckley didn't think so.

I've already made the point that you aren't one to indulge too much in original thinking - but instead to let others think for you.

...but I guess it's worthwhile reiterating...

And what of the libertarian socialists?

The subject here is homosexuality. Care to describe how any known libertarian socialist ideology (which actually covers a substantial range...) would naturally lead to your conclusions on the issue?!
Post Reply