Please explain this to me

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_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Marriage has never meant anything else. How can you constitutionally support changing what an institution is?


Like the meaning of any word, the meaning of the word "marriage" is socially constructed. Marriage practices have differed in many times and places. Sometimes it is arranged, sometimes forced, sometimes voluntary. Sometimes it is a political alliance, sometimes a commercial transaction, sometimes a civil contract, and sometimes a religious covenant. Sometimes it is done for love; sometimes with more mundane motivations. Sometimes it involves sexual union; sometimes it is strictly platonic. The point is, the idea that marriage is some sort of static institution that has always meant to everyone everywhere what it means to you is very naïve. In fact, the first same-sex marriages on record occurred around 300 AD among the ancient Romans. (Such marriages were probably considered extra-legal, but were certainly taken seriously by the participants.) But even if same-sex marriage were without historical precedent, it wouldn't matter. All social institutions possess a certain malleability, and can be (and frequently are) adapted to new cultural circumstances. To suggest that social changes are invalid if they are without historical precedent would exclude all of modernity and all religious sects of recent origin (including your own, despite its typically restorationist pretensions). To the contrary, historical precedent is irrelevant. At issue here is not the question of what marriage has meant to most people throughout history, but rather what it means to people today and whether they should have the right to define and practice it as they will. I believe they should.

Incidentally, I suggest that same-sex marriage redefines marriage only in subtle ways. Excluding a small number of bitter iconoclasts who hope to deconstruct marriage by treating it irreverently, the form and meaning of same-sex marriages are mostly the same as in other, more traditional American marriages. The difference lay in the gender of the participants and the possibility of issue. That's all. To say that gay-rights advocates are "changing what an institution is" assumes that the essence of marriage lay with the gender of the participants rather than with the symbolic, social, and sacred significance of the act. I think that if you really think about it, you will have to admit the gender of the participants has no necessary connection to the significance of the institution itself. I believe that people have a constitutional right to define marriage as they will, but I also suggest that the changes to the institution of marriage we will see at the social level will be much less dramatic and frightening than fundamentalist reactionaries would have us fear. Perhaps that should comfort as as we do the right thing, and legalize gay marriage once and for all.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Thanks for making the case for history, Chris. When Nehor says "we have all recorded history on our side" he's talking out of his anal cavity.

Carry on.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Ren
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

Gazelam wrote:How about we all opose Gay Marriage on the basis that we do not wish to legitimize Sodomy. I mean shouldent we all be united in the idea that one man placing his penis in another mans anal cavity and pushing his stool around is pretty disgusting? Is this really something we want to say is ok?

The above is just - daft. I may as well say: "Placing a penis into a piss-pipe could also be described as 'disgusting'".

But it's not about whether you personally approve of it, or find it 'disgusting'. Or whether I do or don't.
It's about whether it's any of your business. The answer to that question is... no.
You like to bang on about morals a lot. Well, it's morally wrong to stick your nose into other people's adult, consensual relationships.
Mind your own business.

I'm just glad you've managed to not mention killing them in a while. I'll take that as 'progress'.
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

All I have to say is:

2 Girls, 1 Cup
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Hally McIlrath
_Emeritus
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Post by _Hally McIlrath »

antishock8 wrote:All I have to say is:

2 Girls, 1 Cup



Don't anyone, for the love of god and all things holy and pure, either google that video, or even so much as read a description of its contents secondhand.

I am just saying this for your own protection. No need to thank me.

P.S: Well said, Renegade.
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
John Keats
_Ren
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

Hally McIlrath wrote:Don't anyone, for the love of god and all things holy and pure, either google that video, or even so much as read a description of its contents secondhand.

Never seen the vid, but too late as far as reading the description...
...damn that vivid visual imagination of mine!!

P.S: Well said, Renegade.

Cheers. I'm quite big on Libertarianism.
How quickly many Americans seem to have forgotten what their country was supposed to be about...
_beastie
_Emeritus
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Post by _beastie »

Marriage between one man and one woman is simply the “compromise” that the sexes have arrived at in most cultures. But depending on the needs, marriage can be and has been reformulated in many ways. One culture even has a long tradition of polyandry, but no polygyny. Other cultures engage in polygyny, but the males don’t marry until their forties and then accumulate a harem. And, of course, marriage, throughout history, has largely been about inheritance and property in terms of legal interference.

Historically, the involvement of the Catholic church in marriage had to do with trying to control inheritance and property. It’s hardly some sacred thing once analyzed.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Marriage has never meant anything else. How can you constitutionally support changing what an institution is?


Like the meaning of any word, the meaning of the word "marriage" is socially constructed. Marriage practices have differed in many times and places. Sometimes it is arranged, sometimes forced, sometimes voluntary. Sometimes it is a political alliance, sometimes a commercial transaction, sometimes a civil contract, and sometimes a religious covenant. Sometimes it is done for love; sometimes with more mundane motivations. Sometimes it involves sexual union; sometimes it is strictly platonic. The point is, the idea that marriage is some sort of static institution that has always meant to everyone everywhere what it means to you is very naïve. In fact, the first same-sex marriages on record occurred around 300 AD among the ancient Romans. (Such marriages were probably considered extra-legal, but were certainly taken seriously by the participants.) But even if same-sex marriage were without historical precedent, it wouldn't matter. All social institutions possess a certain malleability, and can be (and frequently are) adapted to new cultural circumstances. To suggest that social changes are invalid if they are without historical precedent would exclude all of modernity and all religious sects of recent origin (including your own, despite its typically restorationist pretensions). To the contrary, historical precedent is irrelevant. At issue here is not the question of what marriage has meant to most people throughout history, but rather what it means to people today and whether they should have the right to define and practice it as they will. I believe they should.

Incidentally, I suggest that same-sex marriage redefines marriage only in subtle ways. Excluding a small number of bitter iconoclasts who hope to deconstruct marriage by treating it irreverently, the form and meaning of same-sex marriages are mostly the same as in other, more traditional American marriages. The difference lay in the gender of the participants and the possibility of issue. That's all. To say that gay-rights advocates are "changing what an institution is" assumes that the essence of marriage lay with the gender of the participants rather than with the symbolic, social, and sacred significance of the act. I think that if you really think about it, you will have to admit the gender of the participants has no necessary connection to the significance of the institution itself. I believe that people have a constitutional right to define marriage as they will, but I also suggest that the changes to the institution of marriage we will see at the social level will be much less dramatic and frightening than fundamentalist reactionaries would have us fear. Perhaps that should comfort as as we do the right thing, and legalize gay marriage once and for all.


I disagree. You're arguing that because marriages are created for multiple purposes that what marriage is is different.

Those iconoclasts (I don't necessarily think they're bitter) make up the majority of gay males based on everything I've read.

When gay marriage is legalized (I hate that I have to say when, not if) it will be of no comfort to me.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Hally McIlrath wrote:
antishock8 wrote:All I have to say is:

2 Girls, 1 Cup



Don't anyone, for the love of god and all things holy and pure, either google that video, or even so much as read a description of its contents secondhand.

I am just saying this for your own protection. No need to thank me.

P.S: Well said, Renegade.


Seconded, do not search if you value your soul.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Ren
_Emeritus
Posts: 1387
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:34 am

Post by _Ren »

So - CKid lays out a consistent, logical and historically accurate view.
...Nehor doesn't reply with much more than 'Nah ehh...'

Right - got it.

By the way - speaking of the '2 girls, 1 cup' thing. We'd better enforce some legal penalty on anybody who does that. Surely.
Otherwise, we'd be 'encouraging' it. And then everybody's going to end up wanting to try it out...
Last edited by Guest on Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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