Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

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_Ray A

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:Ray give me an executive summary or tell me your consensus of the debate or whatever else you think is meaningful in that link. I'm not going to read your link just because you post it.


I only read what Shermer had to say. I'm not interested in what Deek Chopra had to say, because I already know his ideas, and apart from NDEs, he speculates too much on subjects beyond my comfort. I don't, for example, find any evidence for reincarnation all that strong. When it comes to NDEs it's more complicated.

You're about as close to understanding my views as a mouse is to understanding quantum mechanics.

And that truly is the kindest way I can put it.
_marg

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
marg wrote:Ray give me an executive summary or tell me your consensus of the debate or whatever else you think is meaningful in that link. I'm not going to read your link just because you post it.


I only read what Shermer had to say. I'm not interested in what Deek Chopra had to say, because I already know his ideas, and apart from NDEs, he speculates too much on subjects beyond my comfort. I don't, for example, find any evidence for reincarnation all that strong. When it comes to NDEs it's more complicated.

You're about as close to understanding my views as a mouse is to understanding quantum mechanics.

And that truly the kindest way I can put it.


Well Ray you've been trying to use science to push an agenga of yours that NDE's & OBE "might be true" If someone says something along the lines of they might be true I take that to mean they think there can be more to the experiences than physiological explanation. So that's up to you to make clear what that is, or what you think that is. But I'm pretty darn sure for whatever you think it might be it is speculation unwarranted by any evidence. These experiences that people have which you've read about, are experienced in a conscious state, they may not think so, but the experiences are affected by brain damage and/or oxygen deprivation in the brain.

I also think Ray you don't understand what skepticism entails.
_Ray A

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:Well Ray you've been trying to use science to push an agenga of yours that NDE's & OBE "might be true"


I have used science for no such thing.

Scientists are still investigating the phenomenon, and you are not only not up to date on this, but you've read pathetically little about this subject, and therefore debating this with you is pointless. You are the one with an agenda - an agenda to claim there are already answers and rock solid scientific conclusions, when there are not. I have already told you, both by email and on the board, I do not give a rat's arse if the scientific conclusion is that it's all brain-induced. You are the one wishing for certain conclusions, not me, when those conclusions have not been reached.


marg wrote:I also think Ray you don't understand what skepticism entails.


Please spare me any further lessons.
_marg

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
marg wrote:Well Ray you've been trying to use science to push an agenga of yours that NDE's & OBE "might be true"


I have used science for no such thing.


Yes you have. You wrote: No reputable scientific commentator, including Susan Blackmore, the chief skeptic of NDEs, has said there's a final answer - problem solved. To the contrary, Blackmore even admitted that "they might be true". Why? Because in spite of her skepticism, she's still more open-minded than marg."

That's how science works Ray, they never say something is impossible. Never, ever Ray, so by saying they never say there is a final answer that is saying nothing, that's science that's how it works. But the implication you are giving is that the lack of a scientific position formally made as a theory means science or scientist think they might be true. Science explains phenomenon using evidence. That doesn't mean they may not think something is impossible. The fact that they say nothing against doesn't mean they think it might be true. It's like the "God" concept. Science says nothing about a God , nothing pro or con ..because there is no evidence to warrant doing so. Similarly there is no evidence to warrant speculating that there might be something beyond naturalistic physiological explanations for NDE or OBE's. You brought up Susan Blackmore saying she was open minded and thinks there "OBE's and NDE's might be true". That's not what I read on her page. She spent years trying to find something, because of her personal experience, but came to a change of mind. Now she calls herself a skeptic and she said New Agers etc find her closed minded. Well if she was still open minded in the sense that you think, that they might be true, then these New Agers etc wouldn't think she's closed minded.




Scientists are still investigating the phenomenon,


And you say you aren't trying to use science in your argument..sheesh, yes you are!


and you are not only not up to date on this,


Woerlee explains quite well the physiology behind the experience. There is no evidence that there is anything more than physiological. If there was Ray, it would be a simple matter of doing objective tests in hospitals and providing consistent evidence. Even that Lancet article Woerlee has addressed.

but you've read pathetically little about this subject, and therefore debating this with you is pointless.


Wasn't this something you researched for your brother for a book he wrote? Good for you, you've done extensive reading on it. Meanwhile conceptually you are out to lunch appreciating what science has to say. You don't appreciate Ray that lack of scientific formal theorizing that NDE's and OBE don't exist beyond physiological explanation does not mean science thinks they might be true.

You are the one with an agenda - an agenda to claim there are already answers and rock solid scientific conclusions, when there are not.


I'm the skeptic Ray, I'm the one open to evidence and willing to change my mind upon evidence, you are the irrational one, pushing the notion that because science doesn't say they aren't true then science thinks they might be true.

I have already told you, both by email and on the board, I do not give a rat's arse if the scientific conclusion is that it's all brain-induced. You are the one wishing for certain conclusions, not me, when those conclusions have not been reached.


Woerlee has given a physiological explanation which I do accept. I'm not going to waste my time reading about and speculating that NDE's or OBE's "might be true". I've reached that conclusion a lot sooner that S. Blackmore did. It's saves me a lot of time, doesn't it. And when people like yourself who have an interest in this come up with good strong objective evidence by science then I'll listen. In the meantime people like yourself should stop thinking so highly of themselves that they are open minded ..not closed minded like the skeptics who ignore their speculations.


marg wrote:I also think Ray you don't understand what skepticism entails.


Please spare me any further lessons.


Sure
_Ray A

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote: I've reached that conclusion a lot sooner that S. Blackmore did. It's saves me a lot of time, doesn't it. And when people like yourself who have an interest in this come up with good strong objective evidence by science then I'll listen. In the meantime people like yourself should stop thinking so highly of themselves that they are open minded ..not closed minded like the skeptics who ignore their speculations.


But that's how you reach all of your conclusions. Don't read the research, only the reasearch that supports your conclusions. So who is the one thinking "highly" here? You're pretty much saying that Blackmore is a fool for even bothering to research what you already know! She could have saved herself 30 years of study in this field, beginning with a Ph.D in Parapsychology. Do you even accept that such a Ph.D is valid?

As I've said about you before, marg, you're the expert on everything who's read nothing. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not by much.
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_marg

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
marg wrote: I've reached that conclusion a lot sooner that S. Blackmore did. It's saves me a lot of time, doesn't it. And when people like yourself who have an interest in this come up with good strong objective evidence by science then I'll listen. In the meantime people like yourself should stop thinking so highly of themselves that they are open minded ..not closed minded like the skeptics who ignore their speculations.


But that's how you reach all of your conclusions. Don't read the research, only the reasearch that supports your conclusions. So who is the one thinking "highly" here? You're pretty much saying that Blackmore is a fool for even bothering to research what you already know! She could have saved herself 30 years of study in this field, beginning with a Ph.D in Parapsychology. Do you even accept that such a Ph.D is valid?


I've taken no interest in OBE's & NDE's until you brought it up on this board. Absolutely no interest. When you first mentioned it and posted that one guy's experience in which he said it really happened..it sounded like nonsense to me and that he was lying. So I did a bit of reading and learned there are core experiences common to people with NDE's and OBE's. Given that, I now can change my perspective that the one person you posted had lied. If lots of people have the same core experiences then chances are diminished greatly that he did.

As far as any explanations for any phenomenon that explains using the supernatural, I find them too easy, and I immediately do reject unless there is really good strong evidence to support or warrant. That is my immediate assumption. It is a skeptical one and it saves people a lot of time. I don't research, God, bigfoot, NDE, OBEs etc. Now if someone wished to argue for something supernatural it's up to them to explain the evidence. In this case once I looked into NDE's and OBE's I was fortunate to come across on the Net Woerlee's physiological explanations. However if Woerlee's explanation was not there, I would still assume eventually a physiological explanation would be found or could be found..something which didn't involve more than the workings of the brain. When you first told me about the NDE's I commented to the effect that how would anyone know whether someone was conscious or not when they had their experiences and in fact that is part of Woerlee's explanation. That people think they weren't conscious but that they were.

To some extent Blackmore was a bit of a fool and she even admits it. She says she was addicted to studying the paranormal and it felt good to be an expert on the subject and was difficult for her to let go. In other words much of why she spent so much time on it was due to emotional reasons, not intellectual.

As I've said about you before, marg, you're the expert on everything who's read nothing. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not by much.


And as I've said before it does little good to read extensively if one can not or does not critically evaluate well the information they do read.
_Ray A

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:I've taken no interest in OBE's & NDE's until you brought it up on this board. Absolutely no interest.


That was very obvious.


marg wrote:When you first mentioned it and posted that one guy's experience in which he said it really happened..it sounded like nonsense to me and that he was lying. So I did a bit of reading and learned there are core experiences common to people with NDE's and OBE's. Given that, I now can change my perspective that the one person you posted had lied. If lots of people have the same core experiences then chances are diminished greatly that he did.


Which "guy" is this? Let's explore this in some more detail, about exactly what I said, because you have a habit of twisting what I say.

marg wrote:As far as any explanations for any phenomenon that explains using the supernatural, I find them too easy, and I immediately do reject unless there is really good strong evidence to support or warrant. That is my immediate assumption. It is a skeptical one and it saves people a lot of time. I don't research, God, bigfoot, NDE, OBEs etc. Now if someone wished to argue for something supernatural it's up to them to explain the evidence. In this case once I looked into NDE's and OBE's I was fortunate to come across on the Net Woerlee's physiological explanations. However if Woerlee's explanation was not there, I would still assume eventually a physiological explanation would be found or could be found..something which didn't involve more than the workings of the brain. When you first told me about the NDE's I commented to the effect that how would anyone know whether someone was conscious or not when they had their experiences and in fact that is part of Woerlee's explanation. That people think they weren't conscious but that they were.


That's no surprise either. But you haven't examined rebuttals to Blackmore and Woerlee. Have you read any serious criticism of Blackmore's work? Now, let me guess.....they aren't worth reading because things like NDEs just couldn't be real. Therfore it's a waste of time reading serious rebuttals. And thus goes marg's circular reasoning. "It's not true because it couldn't be true, therefore there's no point investigating something that couldn't be true."

marg wrote:To some extent Blackmore was a bit of a fool and she even admits it. She says she was addicted to studying the paranormal and it felt good to be an expert on the subject and was difficult for her to let go. In other words much of why she spent so much time on it was due to emotional reasons, not intellectual.


Her frustration was due to the fact that no final conclusions could be reached, and she couldn't persuade her critics that her opinions were right.

Blackmore:

After a long series of experiments I had no replicable findings and only a large collection of negative results. Clearly they could not answer my original questions. nor test my special theory. Some of you may already be protesting: What an idiot. Why didn’t she just give up and do something useful instead? But I would have responded: This could be useful! If ESP exists, it could be one of the most important findings for science; and in any case you can never tell in advance what research will be useful in the end. You may also be thinking, as many people said at the time: "Oh but this is just what you’d expect. She has only shown that there is no psi." But of course I hadn’t done that, and couldn’t do that. No amount of negative results can prove the nonexistence of psi. Psi might always be right around the next corner, and there were plenty of corners to look around.


In the end I think my negative results told me that the psi hypothesis leads only to unrepeatability (Blackmore 1985). It forces us to ask ever more boring questions, culminating in the question "Does psi exist?" and to that question there is no obviously right answer. Where there is no right answer, we are in ignorance; and, where we are in ignorance, we should do only one thing—have an open mind. But that is too difficult. After all these years of research, I can only conclude that I don’t know which is more elusive—psi or an open mind.


That was the source of her frustration, as she said in her departure statement - there was no way of finally proving it all untrue, and she said, "it might be true after all".

You're very selective in your biased reading, marg.

marg wrote:And as I've said before it does little good to read extensively if one can not or does not critically evaluate well the information they do read.


The interesting thing about this statement of yours is that it's actually anti-scientific. Science means first becoming informed, then making critical evaluations. You work backwards - form a conclusion, and ignore all the research that criticises that conclusion. You've said you won't read it, because "it's a waste of time". If anyone is the pseudo-scientist here, it's you.
Last edited by _Ray A on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_marg

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote: [


That's no surprise either. But you haven't examined rebuttals to Blackmore and Woerlee. Have you read any serious criticism of Blackmore's work? Now, let me guess.....they aren't worth reading because things like NDEs just couldn't be real. Therfore it's a waste of time reading serious rebuttals. And thus goes marg's circular reasoning.


Let me guess you have read rebuttals and probably extensively too at that, and have come to the conclusion OBE's and NDE's "might be true" I think I'll use Blackmore's tactic..and just :smile:
_Ray A

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:Let me guess you have read rebuttals and probably extensively too at that, and have come to the conclusion OBE's and NDE's "might be true" I think I'll use Blackmore's tactic..and just :smile:


I follow the research which is critical to determining what the phenomenon is. It's easy to select one aspect of the research and cling to it as "truth". It takes effort to weigh all points of view, and the findings to date.

From The Weekend Australian:

Life After Life.

You are dying.

Twenty seconds ago your heart and breathing stopped and your pupils became fixed and dilated. Your brain cells are in a state of panic, trying every trick they know to get hold of oxygen and glucose. An electroencephalogram (EEG) would show no electrical activity in your cortex, the thin outer layer of your brain. You have flatlined.

As usual, a young, inexperienced doctor is first on the scene.

They’re fitter and faster. There’s only time to confirm you’re not breathing before starting 30 chest compressions followed by two breaths into your mouth. A cart arrives with a defibrillator, the electric-shock machine, as do a few older, less fit doctors. The machine is not, sadly, one of the sexy, telegenic ones with paddles and George Clooney shouting “Clear!” With this machine the electrodes are stuck to your chest. You are shocked. Nothing. A blood sample is taken and rushed for instant analysis. You’re given repeated injections of adrenaline and, depending on your exact condition, atropine, amiodarine and magnesium. Still nothing. The doctors and nurses work furiously for, say, 10 minutes if you’re an old lady with pneumonia, or half an hour or more if you’re a young man who’s fallen into a cold river.

Nothing. Finally, a watching consultant officially announces that you no longer exist. It’s over. The confusing babble known as “your life” has ended. Or has it? You see, the weird thing is that you may have flatlined, be “clinically dead”, but you’ve been watching the whole thing from the ceiling. As soon as your heart stopped, you just drifted out of your body and found you could float anywhere. You feel incredibly well, bathed in bright light, suffused with a deep sense of peace and knowing that, at last, it all makes sense. Some of your dead relatives are here and, behind you, there is a tunnel from which the light floods down. Perhaps you can see Jesus at the far end of it, or Muhammad or Krishna. The chaos at your bedside is interesting, amusing even, but trivial. Death, you now know with absolute certainty, is an illusion.

You’re having a near-death experience (NDE). They happen all the time. They may happen to everybody, however they die.

Remarkably similar experiences have been reported throughout history in all cultures. Obviously, most are lost to us, because being near death is usually the immediate prelude to being dead.

But precisely because high-tech hospital resuscitations are so effective – around 15 per cent of cardiac-arrest victims are revived – we can now regularly hear news apparently from beyond the grave. And it sounds like very good news indeed. You don’t really die and you feel great. What could be nicer? NDEs are so common, so vivid and so life-transforming – survivors frequently become more compassionate, religious and serene as a result of what they experience – that scientists, philosophers, priests, psychologists and cultists all want a piece of the action. Their problem is that the human mind is unreachable.

We can’t see what’s going on in there. Even if we could rush cardiac-arrest patients into an MRI scanner, we’d only see lights in the brain; we wouldn’t know what they meant.

But now NDEs are to be scientifically investigated in a US and UK study involving 25 hospitals. This is co-ordinated by Dr Sam Parnia at Southampton University in England and is designed to find 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrests – “clinical death” – who tell such stories. “I see no reason why a priest should tell us about death when we have all this technology available,” says Parnia.

“Death is a biological process and there’s no reason why we shouldn’t study it through medicine.”

Getting a scientific handle on this phenomenon is fiendishly difficult. Dead people don’t report back, and it is very hard to assess the status of survivor accounts – are they merely hallucinations occurring before the crisis or just after? Perhaps they are no more than the brain’s way of soothing your path to extinction.

Cardiac arrests are a good place to start because they provide a clear-cut moment when the dying process begins and when, clinically speaking, you may be said to be dead. Says Parnia: “It might in fact be better to say that experiences after cardiac arrests are actual death experiences rather than near-death experiences.” Cardiac arrests also happen a lot in hospitals, so the experimental conditions are reasonably controllable. But details such as bright lights, tunnels and feelings of peace cannot be pinned down experimentally.

One aspect of near-death experiences, however, can be: the out-of-body experience (OBE), seeing yourself and your surroundings from outside. When you are looking down from the ceiling, what exactly do you see? Many survivors report with remarkable accuracy what went on when they should, in theory, be utterly unconscious. This seems to be hard, testable evidence.

There are thousands of reports of OBEs but the two most famous cases are Pam Reynolds and Maria’s Tennis Shoe. Reynolds, an American singer, watched and later reported on with remarkable accuracy the top of her own skull being removed by surgeons before she moved into a bright glowing realm. But it was her account of the surgical implements used and the words spoken in the theatre that make the case so intriguing.

Maria, meanwhile, underwent cardiac arrest in 1977. She floated out of her body, drifted round the hospital and noticed a tennis shoe on a window sill.

It was later found to be exactly where she said it was. The shoe was said to be invisible from the ground and not in any location where Maria could have seen it. Such stories suggest that OBEs should be scientifically verifiable.

Parnia’s study is aimed solely at OBEs in cases of cardiac arrest. It uses a technique known as “hidden target”. In the participating hospitals he is placing pictures on high shelves so that they will be invisible both to patients and staff, but anybody floating near the ceiling would see them. There are numerous problems with this.

Parnia’s study does not have enough money to put laptops on the shelves generating random pictures to ensure that cheating is impossible. Furthermore, previous hidden-target experiments by, among others, Parnia himself and Dr Penny Sartori at Morriston Hospital in Swansea, Wales, have failed to produce a single positive result. In fairness, this may be because the last thing that a floating dying person, with Jesus behind him and his body being pounded in front of him, will notice is some odd picture left on a shelf. This leaves believers in OBEs with an evidential mountain to climb.

There are plenty of sceptics who will pounce on negative results or even positive ones with any signs of ambiguity. Dr Peter Fenwick, a neuro-psychiatrist who has overseen Parnia and Sartori’s work, admits that, whatever the outcome, there will still be “wriggle room” for sceptics.

“People can say they could have cheated, but if we have 50 or 60 of these cases where people leave their bodies and some see the pictures and some do not, then it looks like from the phenomenology that this does occur,” Fenwick says.

Hidden targets are the best key science has for unlocking the true nature of NDEs. If Parnia comes up with positive results, then even the most hardened sceptics will have to pay attention. They will force a serious rethinking of all current ideas about the brain and the mind.

This is definitely a legitimate scientific inquiry,” says Chris French, professor of psychology at Goldsmiths College, London, and co-editor of The Skeptic magazine. “Refereed proposals of this kind have my full support.

There’s no doubt that people have these experiences, and there is something of great psychological interest to be explained here.” French’s position is important. He specialises in paranormal beliefs and experiences. In some cases his position is that of outright scepticism. For example, people started reporting alien-abduction scenarios – flying saucers, anal probes – in large numbers only after a single case, that of Betty and Barney Hill, was publicised in Look magazine in 1966. This was clearly a kind of mental virus, made more virulent by the fact that most of the accounts were retrieved under hypnosis. But NDEs were widely reported even before they became known to a mass audience through Raymond Moody’s 1975 book Life After Life. And hypnosis has not been involved in retrieving the accounts.

The consistency and clarity of these reports across cultures and time zones convince French that, even if NDEs may not prove the afterlife, they do cast light on the human mind.

“There is a core experience that is essentially the same across cultures,” he says.

“Christians don’t see Hindu gods and Hindus don’t see Jesus, so there is some kind of cultural overlay, but we are dealing with people attempting to put an ineffable experience into words.

There’s a common core that has as its basis the fact that we all have very similar brains, so when things go awry we are likely to have similar experiences.” And, as in all things, it is the human mind that is at the heart of the matter.

If we can float out of our bodies, then the mind is separable from (and perhaps not dependent on) the brain. Twelve years after Tom Wolfe famously announced in Forbes magazine that, as a result of developments in neuroscience, “Your soul just died”, it may be time to say: “No, it didn’t.” But is such a thing as a separable mind possible or even conceivable? The answer is yes. In explaining why, it will be necessary to plunge into philosophy and quantum mechanics. Bear with me: at the end of it, you might just believe you are immortal.

The world, on the face of it, is made of two ingredients: thoughts and things. A brick, for example, is, on the one hand, a fact in the world and, on the other, a combination of all my feelings about bricks in general and this brick in particular. This is generally regarded as a very odd state of affairs. My thoughts and feelings are as real to me as the brick, but they don’t seem to be made of the same stuff. Indeed, they don’t seem to be made of any stuff. The belief that they aren’t, that the world is made of two different substances – bricks and thoughts of bricks – is called dualism.

Dualism is the default human conviction, embraced by religions, philosophies and, in fact, by everybody in their lives; if we didn’t embrace some degree of it, we’d be constantly worried about crashing our cars into other people’s thoughts. Dualism means that the mind and the brain are not made of the same things and therefore in theory they can be separated, as in NDEs.

Much of modern science can be seen as an attempt to disprove dualism.

In the strictly scientific world-view there is only one stuff out of which bricks and brains are constructed. My thoughts and feelings are just what the brain does. The brain gives us thoughts to provide the illusion of control. It’s largely an illusion that the mind has any effect on the world. We’re all imprisoned in the chains of cause and effect that started with the Big Bang. But in spite of numerous claims, this remains a statement of faith. Neuroscientists may be able to show what happens in the brain when we think or when we exercise “free will”, but this cannot be shown to be proof that dualism is wrong.

“Look,” they say, “we’ve proved it. It’s just neurons firing sparks at each other.” Well, no. Those electrical patterns are not thought itself; they may be no more than symptoms of thought. For all our technology, nobody has yet seen a thought, nobody has shown how matter becomes mind. How it does remains one of the most profound questions any human ever asks himself.

Enter quantum mechanics. This started as the study of very small things – subatomic particles. It is the most effective scientific idea ever: it powers your computer, television, anything dependent on electronics. So we know it’s true enough to work, but it’s also weird enough to defy belief. Everything about the discoveries in this area turned out to be in defiance of reason.

Crucially, two things were discovered. First, particles can continue to be connected to each other even though separated by long distances – billions of light years, even: a phenomenon known as non-locality.

This is, in our big world, impossible.

Second, quantum theory showed that the mind can affect the world. If, for example, you say that light is made of particles, then, obligingly, light will be particles. If you say it is waves, then it will be waves. The questions we ask of nature determine the answers it gives.

Anybody who claims to fully understand the ramifications of this is lying.

Henry Stapp must come close. He is a distinguished physicist at the University of California at Berkeley. He is convinced that quantum mechanics applies to large as well as small things.

The world as a whole is just as weird as the inner workings of the atom. The truth of the world and ourselves is that the whole thing is a chaotic swirl of energy and particles. But we don’t see it, because we make our own reality, our own truth, by only asking certain questions. The brick is a product of our mind; to all-seeing, non-human eyes, it is just a swirl of almost nothing.

“The observer,” Stapp tells me, “is brought into quantum dynamics in an essential way, not only as a passive observer but as an active part of the dynamics. He makes certain choices not specified by the physical dynamics which seem to come from the psychologically described realm rather than the physically described realm.

“So what happens when a person dies? Does this psychological part just fade away? That’s what most would think. On the other hand, there are these experiments done by physicians in connection with NDEs which seem to be evidence that brain-death or total brain inactivity does not totally put out the psychological aspect. The relationship between the brain and the psychic experience is not as simple as one might have expected.” On top of that, quantum nonlocality could mean the mind is capable of being non-local to the brain, of floating to the ceiling of the room. It can become, as Stapp puts it, “unglued”.

His words “certain choices not specified by the physical dynamics” are world-changing. This idea would, if widely accepted, end the reign of scientific materialism, replacing it with a new dualism. It would mean the universe is not a “causally closed” system, locked down since the Big Bang, as mainstream science has always insisted it is, but open to freedom of choice by the autonomous, floating, matter-altering mind. We would have regained our souls.

Positive results from Parnia’s survey might foreshadow the soul’s return.

The effects would be seismic.

First, you’d have to accustom yourself to the idea that your mind is not just the little man inside your skull – he really is out there in the world. Second, a lot of the things that now seem like products of charlatans – telepathy, spiritualism, even psychokinesis – will suddenly be much more credible. Third, you need not anticipate instant oblivion on death but a series of very weird and very illuminating experiences.

This would be a revolution, but it would also be a return to the past. Until the rise of secular materialism over the past 200 years, humans always lived with the conviction that the world was made of far more than brick-stuff, and they also lived with a lively sense of the presence of the dead.

But a bucket of iced water is necessary at this point. Few scientists think any of this is going to happen.

Believers in a new dualism – or, indeed, believers that there is anything more to NDEs than a psychologically interesting hallucination – are still a small minority.

The problem is that all the evidence remains anecdotal, and even the most impressive stories, such as Reynolds’s, tend to look less convincing on closer examination. “There are many claims of this kind,” writes the prominent psychologist Susan Blackmore, “but in my long decades of research into NDEs I never met any convincing evidence that they are true.” Sceptics such as Blackmore and Chris French may welcome the Parnia study, but others are less tolerant.

Attacks have been launched by hard sceptics against all of the most ambitious claims for NDEs. In The Skeptic, Jason Braithwaite of Birmingham University in England wrote a withering deconstruction of a headline-generating Dutch study that claimed survival of the mind after death. “(It) provided no evidence at all that the mind or consciousness is separate from brain processes,” he wrote.

“Their findings are entirely consistent with contemporary neuroscience and are in line with the general dying-brain account of NDE. It appears that the position of the survivalist is still one based on faith.” That, in a nutshell, is the mainstream position. What he means by the “dying-brain account” is simply that NDEs are just what happen when the brain starts shutting down; they may, indeed, be an evolved mechanism to console the psyche by distracting it from the intolerable prospect of its own extinction.

They may not even happen when the patient is flatlining but when he is slipping into or out of that state. As with dreams, it is often hard to say when they actually happen.
Or, even if NDEs do happen during flatlining, this may be due to deep brain activity undetected by an EEG, which only measures activity on the surface of the brain.

Furthermore, these type of experiences may not be such unusual events. Fighter pilots sometimes experience “G-Loc” – G-force-induced loss of consciousness, which produces pleasurable “dreamlets”, floating sensations and sights of family and as evidence of the truth of religion.

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, a psychiatrist and counsellor of the dying, popularised this idea, and her conviction that the bright lights of the NDE were precisely what they seemed to be: a revelation of a divine plan. “In this light,” she wrote, “you will experience for the first time what man could have been. In this presence, which many people compare with Christ or God, with love or light, you will come to know that all your life on Earth was nothing but a school that you had to go through in order to learn special lessons.”

The sceptics say this is all nonsense, that whatever happens in your head when Clooney shouts “Clear!” is just another delusion generated by the material workings of that 1.3kg bag.

However, in the present state of our knowledge, this is crude and premature. We should not only wait for the results of Parnia’s experiment, we should also consider the deep weirdness of the world revealed by Stapp and quantum theory. Hard materialism is just one more philosophical position, and the authentic sceptical reaction is not a derisive snort but a humble acceptance that there are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in any of our philosophies.


This is the sort of balanced assessments needed in this debate.
_marg

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:[

This is the sort of balanced assessments needed in this debate.


No Ray is wasn't balanced at all. There was no substance in there only criticism of skeptics and talk of someone Parnia who is going to do studies. The whole article was biased and implying that OBE's and NDE's might truly be physically out of body experiences. So when you or Parnia or whoever actually has some subtance then you can talk about OBE' & NDE's might be true, in a highly probable way. by the way as far as Pam Reynolds ..Woerlee addressed that.
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