Rough Stone Rolling right over their faith?

[_Dr. Shades]

Of course, Shades, it is always easy to put a negative spin on it all.

"Negative spin," eh? Keep in mind that it's even easier to put a negative spin on 19 Islamic fundamentalists who fly planes into buildings.

[_why me]

I'm not asking you to give us comparisons. I'm asking whether or not it is possible to detect a false prophet, and if so, just what counts as evidence of false prophethood, since mistakes of a fallible man are extremely faith-promoting, according to you.

Now looking back, when looking at the life of Joseph Smith, I see mistakes were made by Joseph. But then again, I also know that mistakes are made by everyone and I have no doubt at all that mistakes were made by all prophets in the Bible and by all apostles in the new testament. First, they were all human with all the weakness that that means. And yes, Joseph Smith had his weaknesses too. And he would have been the first to admit it as when he did say that he was not righteous.

But looking at Joseph Smith, we see many demensions. He was a builder of cities and a builder of people. He began from humble beginnings and from those beginnings he accomplished much. And from that accomplishment, goodness was nurtured. And his legacy still lives on in goodness when one looks at the LDS church. That says much about the man who claimed to commune with Jehova.

I see no comparisons with Koresh and Jones. They are gone and they took their flock with them. I see no foundation for Strang either. But what Joseph Smith founded, it became successful in bringing joy into countless lives. And that says a lot that Joseph was who he said he was.

I edited my reply to include the word 'not' in the post.

[_why me]

Let's be honest with ourselves here for a minute and leave the spin aside. How can someone that entices investors by claiming to have received a revelation from God to create a bank, and that the bank will be successful, only to have it default amid claims of fraud. How can any rational adult chalk this up to a simple mistake. The evidence points to a plan of deception from day one.

If this happened to any other group, Mormons would be pointing their fingers and saying what a bunch of crooks.

Okay, lets be honest with ourselves. The bank failed within a month and Joseph Smith lost his capital as did other investors. Why? I think as Bushman pointed out, there were customers who wished this bank to fail and they began to redeem their notes as soon as possible until finally the bank was out of capital. End of story for the bank with Joseph Smith as a big loser. Joseph Smith and other church leaders did not recognize just what hatred was out there for this venture by the antimormon crowd.

And Joseph being carried away by the spirit of the times, promised too much. He let the lord's work interfere with the affairs of the world. And he suffered the consequences. He and other church leaders did not foresee the antimormonism and the oncoming depression. Basically, he promised too much at the wrong time.

[_Pokatator]

Okay, lets be honest with ourselves. The bank failed within a month and Joseph Smith lost his capital as did other investors. Why? I think as Bushman pointed out, there were customers who wished this bank to fail and they began to redeem their notes as soon as possible until finally the bank was out of capital. End of story for the bank with Joseph Smith as a big loser. Joseph Smith and other church leaders did not recognize just what hatred was out there for this venture by the antimormon crowd.

And Joseph being carried away by the spirit of the times, promised too much. He let the lord's work interfere with the affairs of the world. And he suffered the consequences. He and other church leaders did not foresee the antimormonism and the oncoming depression. Basically, he promised too much at the wrong time.

And he was just a poor victim in all this....right?

Of course, he wasn't taking over the political influence of the whole area or raising a militia or running for President or buying up land like it was popcorn or practicing the horrid thing called polygamy. I could go on and on.

Joe was just a poor victim just like your board name implies "why me".

[_why me]

Joe was just a poor victim just like your board name implies "why me".

Yes, he was a victim of capitalism just like millions of Americans today are victims of capitalism. The bank failed due to people wishing to redeem their notes as soon as possible. The bank ran out of funds. Economic depression hits the banking community and the kirkland bank fails. Joe loses his shirt. End of story.

And yes, in this respect, Joe can claim the 'why me' name.

[_harmony]

[ Joe loses his shirt.

Isn't it more accurate to say "Joe loses everyone else's shirt"? The reason he started the bank in the first place was because he was broke and he could get people to give him their money by saying God wanted them in Joseph's bank.

Still... it's the same type of thing as the Brethren buying the mall now. The practice of misusing God's money is a time-honored one in the LDS church.

[_Dr. Shades]

Okay, lets be honest with ourselves. The bank failed within a month and Joseph Smith lost his capital as did other investors.

No, Joseph didn't have any capital. The idea behind the Kirtland Anti-Banking Company was to pay off his debts using other people's money.

Why? I think as Bushman pointed out, there were customers who wished this bank to fail and they began to redeem their notes as soon as possible until finally the bank was out of capital.

The idea was that that wouldn't happen, hence the Kirtland "Safety" Society and the "Anti-Banking" Company monikers. If I have my facts right, the "hook" was 100% reserves, no fractionalized lending.

End of story for the bank with Joseph Smith as a big loser.

How do you figure? He lost everyone else's money but paid off his own debts to some extent. He was the only one who "won."

Joseph Smith and other church leaders did not recognize just what hatred was out there for this venture by the antimormon crowd.

The "antimormon crowd" had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And Joseph being carried away by the spirit of the times, promised too much.

What, that it would succeed where all other banks failed, and would swallow up all other banks? That was God being carried away by the spirit of the times, not Joseph.

He let the lord's work interfere with the affairs of the world.

And the moral of the story is, never let the Lord's work interfere with the affairs of the world! The affairs of the world come FIRST.

And he suffered the consequences. He and other church leaders did not foresee the antimormonism and the oncoming depression. Basically, he promised too much at the wrong time.

No, God promised too much at the wrong time.

Yes, he was a victim of capitalism just like millions of Americans today are victims of capitalism. The bank failed due to people wishing to redeem their notes as soon as possible.

What's wrong with wishing to redeem their notes as soon as possible, especially since it was a "Safety Society" and an "Anti-Banking Company?"

The bank ran out of funds. Economic depression hits the banking community and the kirkland bank fails. Joe loses his shirt. End of story.

Why didn't God see it coming?

[_cinepro]

It's interesting to contrast the modern perceptions of Zion's Camp and the Kirtland Safety Society.

We are now taught that Zion's camp was a failure, but its long-term benefit was to impart leadership skills and experience to future Church leaders. Not so for the Kirtland Safety Society; that was just Joseph acting on his own, and any assumptions otherwise are the problem of the observer. God had nothing to do with it, and we shouldn't expect Him to have gotten involved in a purely practical temporal matter.

[_cinepro]

Joe loses his shirt. End of story.

Just so we're all clear, can someone explain how much of his own money Joseph lost in the failure of the KSS?

[_why me]

Joe loses his shirt. End of story.

Just so we're all clear, can someone explain how much of his own money Joseph lost in the failure of the KSS?

According to Bushman in RSR, Joseph bought 'more stock than eighty-five percent of the investors'. (page 330) What this means in cash, I have no idea. But he certainly didn't pocket any money as implied on this thread.