Girls are licked cupcakes...

[_Inconceivable]

Harmony,

It's worth noting that if Mormons actually read the Book of Mormon and New Testament and took them into their hearts, they would become a peaceable people. They wouldn't judge by appearance only. They wouldn't judge on the merit system. They'd pay more fast offerings than tithing. The most righteous would seek the same peace that the worst sinner sought for (think about that for a moment because this is the one thing). There would be no classes. They would immediately recognize the intrinsic value of every soul.

Not so.

The leaders, in general, will not ponder the peaceable principles themselves - and that is why the church fails. It has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. The members are only as good as it's leader. Occasionally there may be a few that seem to understand, but they have never been the prophet. There really is no Christ leading this organization. They remind me more of the average Republican Senator.

Particularly, all of us older folk (40's on up), were taught by men that did not know a Christ. C'mon, Pine box doctrine? Ancestor worship? Re-written history? Death oaths? Foul books like the Miracle of Forgiveness?

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because the good within it petition the blind guides until there is change.

[_harmony]

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because the good within it petition the blind guides until there is change.

As good a reason as any to stay inside as long as I can... or am allowed.

[_Dr. Shades]

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because the good within it petition the blind guides until there is change.

I disagree 100%.

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because a more enlightened society-at-large is dragging them along kicking and screaming.

As good a reason as any to stay inside as long as I can... or am allowed.

That's not a good reason to stay. Since when has the hierarchy ever changed anything based on input from the members?

[_Inconceivable]

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because the good within it petition the blind guides until there is change.

I disagree 100%.

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because a more enlightened society-at-large is dragging them along kicking and screaming.

..That's not a good reason to stay. Since when has the hierarchy ever changed anything based on input from the members?

I'm afraid you may be mostly right Dr.,

Those inside the church are forbidden to criticize the leaders, constructive or otherwise.
So yes, it would be those on the outside that The Suits cannot silence. It's been outsiders (including civilized law) that have had the greatest effect upon turning the course of bad, irresponsible and downright immoral doctrine.

One startling example of The Church's deficientcies would be the lack of standards on dealing with sexual predators till the mid 90's - long after the civilized world had structured programs. Many hearts died even in my lifetime. And some Suits still don't have a clue.

[_moksha]

So far as I know, this hasn't been the approach in any ward where I've been a member.

I guarantee that it isn't the approach in the ward where I serve as bishop.

I am glad to hear that. Even if some misguided Relief Society teachers were to paint these young women as Hester Prynne, it would be to ponderous to forever turn a blind eye to the many Reverend Dimmesdales.

.

[_Yoda]

What about the temple changes? Those were done based on survey results from creeped out members. (I realize that TBMs will say this change was done based on inspiration).

[_Daniel Peterson]

What about the temple changes? Those were done based on survey results from creeped out members. (I realize that TBMs will say this change was done based on inspiration).

Are the two mutually exclusive?

[_Jason Bourne]

If the church is changing for the better, it is only because a more enlightened society-at-large is dragging them along kicking and screaming.

..That's not a good reason to stay. Since when has the hierarchy ever changed anything based on input from the members?
I'm afraid you may be mostly right Dr.,

It is difficult but it can happen. It happens as those with mercy and meekness with hearts filled with charity teach, preach and are called to positions to lead. I see it in wards and stakes and I see it in many of the top leaders. I saw it in Elder Maxwell. I see it in Elder Holland and Elder Scott and Pres, Eyring and Pres Uchdorf and others. Not all but in many.

[_harmony]

As good a reason as any to stay inside as long as I can... or am allowed.

That's not a good reason to stay. Since when has the hierarchy ever changed anything based on input from the members?

Darling Shades... you know I love ya, but please don't tell me what is a good reason for me to do something... and what isn't. I'm old enough to have figured that out for myself.

As for the other... do you honestly think the Brethren don't know what we say? They may not know who, or when, or even where, but they know. And things change... slowly, but they change.

[_Jason Bourne]

Darling Shades... you know I love ya, but please don't tell me what is a good reason for me to do something... and what isn't. I'm old enough to have figured that out for myself.

Honestly I agree!! I am so happy now in my life that I am really living it on my terms and choosing to worship where I want and wish. For me the LDS Church is still the best. I have a friend who wants me to join a conservative EV sect, people here who think I ought to bolt because for them the Church is and "obvious fraud." Most of those persons would have me choose a path of no belief in God. Others want me to just shelve the knowledge I have about the problems with the Church. Other more TBM types want me to ignore things that I cannot ignore.

I am actually quite happy with where I am at. Happier I think than I have ever been. I don't tell anyone here why it is good for them to stay, go or do whatever. Nor should they me or you!!!

As for the other... do you honestly think the Brethren don't know what we say? They may not know who, or when, or even where, but they know. And things change... slowly, but they change.

Actually some may be surprised where one can have influence. It will be slow yes. But having had some leadership and having friends and associates with more leadership than I, there have been opportunities to discuss things that could be bettered upon. Some of that may filter upwards. One thing I have been able to discuss with GA level type is the Church's involvement in Prop 8. I will not share the discussion here but I can tell you it encouraged me.