I admire Joseph Smith.

[_DrW]

If we're going to continue talking about this, I will have to assume you've read RSR -- have you?

Yes (as much of it as I could suffer through - in many places it was just another attempt at Mormon apologetics).

Although Bushman provides a more accurate (and franky disturbing) picture of Joseph Smith and the Smith family than one would expect from a "Church approved" biography, I note that Bushman still goes very easy on Joseph Smith and leaves out of his chronology a lot of historically documented information that reflects poorly on the character of Joseph Smith Jr. For example, it is interesting that in his Joseph Smith chronology, Bushman failed to mention:

1819: Joseph borrows Sally Chase's "green glass" and uses it to find his first Seer Stone.

1822: Joseph finds his favorite Seer Stone while digging a well for the Chase family. This is the one with which he "translates" most of the Book of Mormon.

1825: Joseph is given a third Seer Stone by diviner Jack Belcher.

1826: Joseph is tried and found guilty of the misdemeanor known as "glass-looking" and fined.

1833: Joseph "marries" Fanny Alger in a clandestine ceremony that quite possibly includes the unfortunate circumstance of Emma Smith spying the two of them having a romp in the barn.

1838: Joseph "marries" Lucinda Morgan Harris as the first of his polyandrous wives

1842: Joseph joins the Nauvoo Freemasonry Lodge, and is immediately elevated to the status of Master Mason

1843: Joseph is asked to interpret the Kinderhook Plates, and he reveals that they are similar in writing to the Book of Mormon.

1844: Joseph is anointed King of All Israel

With regard to RSR, I fail to see how and unbiased and rational person could read that Mormon authored biography (not even considering the events in JSJr.'s life that were left out or glossed over) and believe for a second that, at the end of the day, Joseph Smith was anything other than an accomplished con artist - let alone a prophet selected by the God of the New Testament.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Do you understand how common folk magic was in Joseph's time and place? It makes perfect sense that the Smith family would buy into it. Joseph did not make much money at it (about $14 a day).

Well in 1860 you could homestead for 1.25 an acre and out right purchase an acre for 3 to 5 dollars, so 14.00 a day seems pretty darned good. How many people now make enough in one day to buy 4 to 11 acres of land? Creflo Dollar comes to mind, I bet he does, and Swaggart and Baker and so many others like them.

That folk magic was a common scam doesn't make it okay any more than the abundance of MLM scams today makes them okay. A cheat is a cheat.

14 dollars from 1823 is worth 253 dollars today. Over a year, Joseph Smith would have raked in 92,345 dollars in 2010 dollars.

[_why me]

That JSJr was an unsuccessful conman until he found his golden Bible does not exonerate the fact he was a conman. Common or not, it was illegal in the State of New York at the time to charge money for glass-looking. So it was not something that the majority of the people of the State of New York could condone nor suffer to be done. JSJr was formally charged and brought before a judge in 1826 on allegation of being a glass-looker for hire, a violation of the laws of the State of New York. That elohim of yours, he sure kept company in the 19th Century with some rogue characters, like JSJr.

I think that Joseph was 19 or 21 at the time. Not very old and quite young. He was trying to make his way in the world and support his family. I do think that he believed that he had the gift. Anyway, it certainly prepared him for the role that he was going to play in this world. And he did that calling well until his murder.

In terms of the Book of Mormon, it has not been proven false nor has Joseph Smith been proven a conman. A person is innocent until proven guilty.

[_why me]

Well in 1860 you could homestead for 1.25 an acre and out right purchase an acre for 3 to 5 dollars, so 14.00 a day seems pretty darned good. How many people now make enough in one day to buy 4 to 11 acres of land? Creflo Dollar comes to mind, I bet he does, and Swaggart and Baker and so many others like them.

That folk magic was a common scam doesn't make it okay any more than the abundance of MLM scams today makes them okay. A cheat is a cheat.

Amazing how you overlook the catholic religion. Do you think that the catholic church became so powerful in the past based a ethical principles? You need to read some catholic history. Joseph was a young man when he started that business. Was he perfect? No. But he worked to support his family. And I am pretty sure that he believed that he did have such a power.

Now of course, we can look into apostle Paul's murderous past and judge him severely. And yet, Paul was a good guy, right?

[_cafe crema]

Well in 1860 you could homestead for 1.25 an acre and out right purchase an acre for 3 to 5 dollars, so 14.00 a day seems pretty darned good. How many people now make enough in one day to buy 4 to 11 acres of land? Creflo Dollar comes to mind, I bet he does, and Swaggart and Baker and so many others like them.

That folk magic was a common scam doesn't make it okay any more than the abundance of MLM scams today makes them okay. A cheat is a cheat.

Amazing how you overlook the catholic religion. Do you think that the catholic church became so powerful in the past based a ethical principles? You need to read some catholic history. Joseph was a young man when he started that business. Was he perfect? No. But he worked to support his family. And I am pretty sure that he believed that he did have such a power.

Now of course, we can look into apostle Paul's murderous past and judge him severely. And yet, Paul was a good guy, right?

Joseph Smith and his activities is the subject here not the Catholic church. What's amazing is your best defense of Joseph Smith is "look at all the bad Catholics" pfft. "Glass looking" a business what a laugh, it was a scam nothing more. As to Paul, at least he repented of his past Joseph Smith just moved on from cheating men out their money to cheating them out of their daughters and wives.

[_Ceeboo]

Good morning why me,

Amazing how you overlook the catholic religion.

Amazing how you obsess over the Catholic religion.

Do you think that the catholic church became so powerful in the past based a ethical principles?

Do you think that the Catholic church should be at the center of a discussion titled "I admire Joseph Smith"?

You need to read some catholic history.

You need to join a Catholic discussion board.

Now of course, we can look into apostle Paul's murderous past and judge him severely. And yet, Paul was a good guy, right?

Now of course, when discussing Joseph Smith, we should not be looking into the past of the apostle Paul, George Washington, Babe Ruth, or Plato because, well, they are not connected to and have nothing to do with Joseph Smith.


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Wisdom Seeker]

And his name will be had for good and evil. Amazing how predictions come true.

Can this not be said of most any historical figure?

[_Blixa]

And his name will be had for good and evil. Amazing how predictions come true.

Can this not be said of most any historical figure?

of any person?

[_Wisdom Seeker]

Can this not be said of most any historical figure?

of any person?

Sure, why not! Name someone.

[_Ceeboo]

Sure, why not! Name someone.

Ceeboo