8.7 Million Species

[_Chap]

Elephants were aquatic before the flood. Later they became terrestrial.

Like whales, only in reverse ...

So, no problem.

[_Jason Bourne]

According to the biblical record, there were no meat eaters. AGain, I'm just explaining the biblical record for those who care to know it.

Also, there's no indication that an elephant had to be on the ark. All that the Bible tells us is that there were two of each "kind", not that there were specifically an elephant.

Well maybe I do not know the story as well as I thought because I must have missed the no meat eaters part. I will take your word for it.

So the lions were either babies or God made sure all meat eaters became temporary vegetarians.

As for the two of each kind, well what the heck do you think that means? Seems to me two of each kind means to of every animal alive so that seem to include an elephant.

I see LDS apologists are not the only ones to jump through mental gymnastics to make implausible things work.

[_Buffalo]

Either way, the Bible story suffers. If kinds includes elephants, how did they feed them? If not, how did they survive?

No, not either way. The Bible story can be reconciled with itself.

Then do so. I've already shown the problem. If you have a solution, offer it.

You mean you've given me citations from the flood myth. Nothing there about rapid evolution, though.

Really? You mean an animal that is now a meat eater who a a year before was a vegetarian is not rapid evolution?

In context that's more like magic, but in any case it's nothing close to the sort of thing required to produce elephants almost instantaneously off the boat.

Lets forget for a moment that elephants predate and postdate the flood, with no interruption or dying out during the flood.

You tell us, Hoops. What did they mean?

No, you tell us. You made the assertion based on the text, so it's up to you to tell us.[/quote]

I've already said I don't know the intention of the authors, who were bronze age myth thieves. Apparently you don't either.

[_Hoops]

I've already said I don't know the intention of the authors, who were bronze age myth thieves. Apparently you don't either.

Yet your opening post claims some sort of insider knowledge.You claim that the Noah story is impossible, but you can't even accurately represent the story. More bluster than any relevant points.

[_Chap]

I've already said I don't know the intention of the authors, who were bronze age myth thieves. Apparently you don't either.

Yet your opening post claims some sort of insider knowledge.You claim that the Noah story is impossible, but you can't even accurately represent the story. More bluster than any relevant points.

OK, here is the whole story:

Genesis 6:

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with aviolence through them; and, behold, I will bdestroy them cwith the earth.

14 ¶Make thee an aark of gopher wood; brooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A awindow shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a aflood of bwaters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the cbreath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish amy bcovenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for afood for thee, and for them.

22 Thus adid bNoah; according to all that God ccommanded him, so did he.

Genesis 7

1 And the Lord said unto aNoah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to arain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5 And Noah adid according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

6 And Noah was asix hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

7 ¶And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the aflood were upon the earth.

11 ¶In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the afountains of the great deep bbroken up, and the cwindows of heaven were opened.

12 And the arain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and ait was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the awaters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and ball the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and aevery man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the abreath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was adestroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and bNoah only remained calive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Genesis 8

1 And God remembered aNoah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters basswaged;

2 The afountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

3 And the waters areturned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the bwaters cwere abated.

4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

6 ¶And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he astayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

13 ¶And it came to pass in the asix hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

15 ¶And God spake unto Noah, saying,

16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy awife, and thy sons, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be afruitful, and bmultiply upon the earth.

18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him:

19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their akinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 ¶aAnd Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every bclean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt cofferings on the altar.

From this it is pretty clear that the earth was completely covered with water for five months - "an hundred and fifty days". Every living thing on the surface of the earth was dead after that time: "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." And that is exactly what God intended to happen: " And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die." (My emphasis in the last sentence).

So: if there was anything alive on the surface of the earth AFTER the Flood, it must have been in the Ark.

What about this idea of Hoops that there were no carnivorous creatures in the Ark? I suppose that it must come from the double enumeration here in Genesis 6:

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Hoops may perhaps think that because the only kind of mammal to be listed explicitly is 'cattle', that opens the door to saying that carnivores were excluded. That is pretty weak, given that:

(a) There is nothing that says that the creatures mentioned in verse 20 as supposed to be exclusively listed, so that the preceding verse refers to "every living thing of all flesh", the next verse is supposed to change the sense into "every living things of the kinds of flesh mentioned below".

(b) Later listings in chapter 7 say: " 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female." So since animals are either clean or unclean, Noah took at least one pair of every kind of animal.

(c) And in any case there are plenty of birds that are carnivorous, and plenty of 'creeping things' too. So even if there were no carnivorous mammals, the problem of some animals feeding on others in the Ark remains.

[_Hoops]

Wrong again. This isn't that tough, but it seems it's not worth the time. I understand that, since many of you consider it a fairy tale anyway. But, that should also disqualify you from commenting on a story that you don't know.

[_Chap]

Wrong again. This isn't that tough, but it seems it's not worth the time. I understand that, since many of you consider it a fairy tale anyway. But, that should also disqualify you from commenting on a story that you don't know.

Wrong about what exactly? And wrong why, exactly?

I know the Bible quite well, and invested a fair amount of time in re-reading the Genesis account of the Flood story, and in composing my post.

Is your mini-post supposed to be an answer to mine? If so, I don't think you are treating the discussion with the seriousness it deserves. And by the way, it is quite possible to take very seriously the question of what the writer of an ancient text is saying (as I think I have above) while still not being willing to believe that the story recounted in that text is a true one.

[_Hoops]

From this it is pretty clear that the earth was completely covered with water for five months - "an hundred and fifty days".

I'm not sure the text demands this.

Every living thing on the surface of the earth was dead after that time:

Every living thing that has "the breath of life." This does not include plants or insects.

So: if there was anything alive on the surface of the earth AFTER the Flood, it must have been in the Ark.

No, not anything. Only those who have the breath of life.

What about this idea of Hoops that there were no carnivorous creatures in the Ark? I suppose that it must come from the double enumeration here in Genesis 6:

I don't have my Bible in front of me right now, but it comes from an earlier chapter where it states that animals and humans ate plants. I'll check it in a little while.

Hoops may perhaps think that because the only kind of mammal to be listed explicitly is 'cattle', that opens the door to saying that carnivores were excluded. That is pretty weak, given that:

Agreed. That's why that's not my position

(c) And in any case there are plenty of birds that are carnivorous, and plenty of 'creeping things' too. So even if there were no carnivorous mammals, the problem of some animals feeding on others in the Ark remains.

No, it doesn't. It isn't until AFTER the ark that we are COMMANDED to eat meat (for which I'm thankful for. Grilled burgers tonight)

[_Buffalo]

I've already said I don't know the intention of the authors, who were bronze age myth thieves. Apparently you don't either.

Yet your opening post claims some sort of insider knowledge.You claim that the Noah story is impossible, but you can't even accurately represent the story. More bluster than any relevant points.

I know the story as well as you do. I don't know the intention of the people who appropriated this story. If you have some magical ability to channel their spirits, do so now.

My insider knowledge that the story is impossible only requires a grade school understanding of science. Apparently that's too much for you.

[_Buffalo]

Wrong again. This isn't that tough, but it seems it's not worth the time. I understand that, since many of you consider it a fairy tale anyway. But, that should also disqualify you from commenting on a story that you don't know.

You obviously have nothing. You bring nothing to this debate.