jon wrote:Kevin, the difficulty with yours/stems position on the priesthood ban for blacks is that you have to be willing to accept that God allowed this mistake in His Church to go uncorrected for generations. He chose not to speak with subsequent Prophets to correct it. He allowed racism to continue unchecked until 1978.
Its a problem only if my position also does not include the caveat that God will indeed make up to all who suffered from bigotry in the end.
That pretty much negates the LDS idea of the great apostasy. The church can teach as much false doctrine as it likes - god will make up for it later, somehow.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Winston wrote:So, like many of you, I found out that I have spent all my life believing a lie. It has a been a long journey and I write all the details, but here is a few things that lead me here:
1. Prop 8. I was living in California when this happened. It was unbelivable how much time and resources was put into this by the church. Everyone in my ward was basically forced to man phone stations and go around knocking doors to promote this. Promotion of this happened in sacrament meeting, sunday school, and priesthood/relief society. It was the least spirtual thing I have ever been a part of. People would bear their testimonies about all the evil things that would happen if this did not pass (Gasp! Their children might know that there are homosexuals in the world. Guess what? They already know.) I did not participate in this, as I believed it was not my role to force anyone to vote a specific way on this and was basically chastized for this. It worked out for some though, the guy that was in charge of the Prop 8 efforts was made bishop right after the prop passed.
2. All the historical inaccuracies. Too many too list. Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon inconsistencies, Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon, polygamy, blacks banned from the priesthood, controversial and very weird things said by the prophets (men on the moon, Kolob, etc.), the temple and masonary. And it wasn't necessarily the inaccuracies, it was the fact that the church goes to such a great length to hide these and present such a pure history and tell all the members not to bother looking at any non-church sanctioned materials in the research. When I read about all the aweful FLDS pologamy stuff and how they all bore testimony of Joseph Smith, it made me interested in the LDS polygamy history, so I looked into it, found nothing from the official church sources, so I went to other church history (not anti-mormon literature, just legitimate history) and was appalled by what I found. It just snowballed from there. I knew there was stuff out there, but it is amazing how much is there. The fact that the church covers this up just makes it look even worse.
3. Where did all the prophesying go? You look at church history and Joseph Smith was always receiving revelations and prophesying about something, other earlier prophets did the same to some extent. Today, the prophet barely acknolwedges that he is a prophet. And instead of receiving some great revelation and general conference, you get a story of how some guy prayed for a quarter to buy some fried chicken. Yet despite this, we are required to blindly follow the church leaders.
4. Elitism and pride. I think it is funny how the church talks so much about avoiding pride, but pretty much every lesson is about how we are so blessed and better than everyone else in the world because we have the truth and we receive blessings that no one else can. That is all I keep hearing in church.
5. Finances. The church expects me every year to declare that I have paid a full tithe when I have no idea what they use it for. There is no financial transperency. And with all the for-profit ventures the church has, it just doesn't seem like something the one and true church should be doing. My wife had to get a job so that we could afford some of the things we needed, however, if we didn't have to pay as much tithing as we did she would not have had to do so.
6. I gave the Mormon promise a last try. I was reading the Book of Mormon and praying, telling God to manifest the truth to me because I was going to make a drastic decision if I did not have a witness of the truth. One day while I was reading the Book of Mormon, I realized that it was poorly written and seemed to be a rip off of the Bible and I wasn't getting anything out of it. That is when I realized I was no longer a believing Mormon anymore. And since then, I have felt like I am receiving so much light and knowldge and feel much better about myself, very similiar to how the church descrbies the feelings one should feel when they are in the church.
There is a lot more, but I think that is enough. I just need to figure out what to do next. I am married and my wife is very into the church. In the past any time there has been an questions about the church she has maintained that we are not supposed to question the church. I desperately want her to know what I know because I think it will make us both happier. However, I know the church teaches loyalty to the church first and am afraid of the consequences of what will happen when I bring this up to her. Any advice on how I should proceed?
Thanks.
I stopped believing almost 2 years ago. I still don't know what the best course is. Best of luck to you! Unfortunately the church is only pro-family so long as families share the same faith. When that changes, the doctrine and the culture becomes very anti-family and many marriages are dissolved as a direct result of this. Some survive, though. Lots of seemingly good advice here though - especially about not backing your spouse into a corner.
Human beings aren't rational, and we will not rationally consider our deeply-held beliefs, especially when backed into a corner. Our brain rewards us for not thinking critically with a shot of euphoric chemicals.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
jon wrote:Kevin, the difficulty with yours/stems position on the priesthood ban for blacks is that you have to be willing to accept that God allowed this mistake in His Church to go uncorrected for generations. He chose not to speak with subsequent Prophets to correct it. He allowed racism to continue unchecked until 1978.
Then the obvious conclusion is that having an organization that people wouldn't consider racist was not a high priority for God for those "generations."
Some people get the idea that everything that is good, God is going to do. Racism is bad, so God would never have His church involved in racism. I think it's attached to the absolutely omnipotent ideas about God. God should be able to have a church in the First Century that attracts people at that time, but that only has virtues, and doesn't have any vices, and people will still think it has all virtues and no vices even in more enlightened times like the Twenty-First Century. And on top of all that God can ride a unicycle on a tightwire over Niagara Falls balancing a chair on His nose with Jerry Falwell sitting in the chair.
That doesn't fit the LDS God at all. Though Biblical Christians will tell you that their God can do literally anything (that doesn't involve a logical contradiction, some will say), LDS theology asserts that there are some things that God cannot do. I'm kind of more extreme than even your typical Latter-day Saint; I think there are many things God cannot do.
Don't get me wrong; I think God is going to end up accomplishing great things; in fact I think He's accomplished the greatest things that can be accomplished given our circumstances. But not by magic, not by snapping His fingers. God has to use natural means to accomplish His goals, and sometimes that involves less than optimal circumstances as He's laying the groundwork for those goals.
To answer the OP, what to do when one finds absolute truth, is to just go with it. Wherever it takes you, as long as it's the truth you simply cannot lose... paradox complete.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
KevinSim wrote:At the risk of starting a firestorm, I'm going to state my disagreement with Stem here. I favored Proposition 8, and I don't apologize for it. When LDS leaders in our ward said they were looking for people to help promote Proposition 8 I offered my services, though apparently they had the help they needed because nobody ever asked me to do anything.
Should it be legal for a gay couple to marry in the United States? Yes! Of course it should be legal! For a nation that has made as much civil rights progress as the US has, one of the next steps should obviously be to allow gay couples to marry! .
These two paragraphs seem to comprehensively contradict each other. In the first paragraph you strongly support the Church in fighting against making same sex marriage legal. In the second you state strong support for making same sex marriage legal. Am I confused or are you?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)
Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
Many Mormons who lose faith become Atheists or Agnostics, as a "knee-jerk reaction" to being "fooled". In other words, "God...you fooled me...so I'm not going to believe in you anymore."
Some Mormons become Evangelicals and believe if they say "Jesus I'm a sinner, will you save me today?" you'll go to Heaven and sing with sexless angels for all eternity, occassionally looking at the Damned screaming in Hell.
Some Mormons become "New Order Mormons" meaning they go to Church but don't believe it. To me, that's like eating crap and saying "i love this stuff" (which I don't). New Order Mormons are usually those whose entire friends and families are TBMs, and they don't wish to be estranged from them.
Some Mormons being Deist, saying, "Ok, there is a God, and I'll try to live a good life" and occassionally pray when they need something, but not be religious beyond that.
Then there is the "Community of Christ", pro-choice, pro-gay, liberal leadership, female apostles, never banned blacks, never accepted the Book of Abraham as a Revelation. De-emphasize the Joseph Smith Story and the Book of Mormon. But...then again...why join that Church over say....the United Methodists? No reason too really.
Some Mormons become Buddhists, or Catholics, or Orthodox, etc. Some Mormons become Baha'is (that's a nice liberal religion....but homosexuality is "forbidden" at least in theory, and they don't get involved in politics).
Personally, I"m a Daheshist. We believe Dr. Dahesh (1912-1984) was a true Prophet of God. He made many prophecies. Fortold many events. Performed thousands (no exaggeration) of supernatural miracles. Sat on my bed in 2005 in daylight, while I was wide awake (and not on drugs or medicine, no head injuries).
So Mormons become Jews, although you'll have to give up belief in Jesus (and most liberal Jews don't believe in any afterlife either).
Personally, one of my favorite religions is "the Family International" founded by David Berg ("Moses David"). Why? All the men can have sex with all the women. Really. Kinda nutty theology, but at least you'll have a good time. They live in small communtes called "Houses". Guys can't have sex for six months (to weed out the guys just joining for sex), but, after that....They sing alot, all the time, make a living by producing Christian music CDs and coloring books for children and going around giving these away in return for "donations" all day.
Unfortunately, there is no "Daheshist Church". Just 2000 Believers worldwide, mostly in Lebanon. Only 400 in the U.S., and only group meets in Queens, New York City. Pretty lonely lot.
Dr. Dahesh would probably say to you: "Practice the Good Religion of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds....and it does not matter what church or religion you belong to, nor if you belong to any church or religion, God will bless you and reward you for the good you have done in this world!"
Personally, I like the Salvation Army. They put the "Pure Religion" into practice! But I couldn't take their worship services with all the clanging and drumb beating and horns, and big fat black women dancing around. But, I love what they do for the poor.
The Church indoctrinated you into believing you had to have a priesthood, and attend all sorts of meetings, and go on a mission, and pay tithing and offerings, and cow-tow to Church leaders (local and general), to go to "Heaven". Dr. Dahesh said you don't need any of that. You don't need a "church" even. Churches were necessary in the "day" when governments supplied no welfare, and Christians had to ban together to help one another, and when most people couldn't read, they had to get together every week to have the Scriptures "read" to them. Well...times have changed! Organized religion is no longer necessary in our modern world of books, literacy, the Internet, and state-sponsored welfare.
Daheshist don't have a "church" but they can go to UNITY churches if they want. Unity School of Christianity. But you don't need to. Going to Heaven is not determined on making "men" like The Brethren happy. It's how one leads their life, with truth, humility, good works, and honor. I discovered long ago, that Mormons don't have enough of any of that.
Don't punish God because Joseph Smith lied to you.
Wisdom Seeker wrote:Yes, many members will be thoughtful and kind up until they are backed into a corner where their very belief is questioned.. Then watch out, horns and fangs suddenly appear.
There may be some Latter-day Saints who behave like this, but by no means all. The only belief I can think I have is belief that this universe is controlled by a good God, and furthermore I recognize that that is in fact a belief, not a scientifically verified fact, and that therefore some other people might disagree with me on the issue of the existence of that God and might question that belief.
I'd like to think that in such a situation, where they questioned that belief; I'd admit that it was a belief, that it was certainly possible that my belief was misplaced; I'd explain why I believed it, and no horns or fangs would spring out!
Hoops wrote:As support for my only comment in this matter, I offer this:
Ceeboo wrote:The most important thing to do when facing a situation (I don't care if it involves personal struggle, health issues, pain points, emotions, financial crisis, faith based issues, etc, etc) is to go to our spouse, with love, respect, and honesty (again perhaps I am wrong but it screams to me that we owe that courtesy to eachother in marriage, as well as to protect the very foundation of honesty and unification that marriage ought to be rooted in) (My opinion)
In short, this is not a time for games, ploys, or hiding from the most precious people in our lives.
It is a time for hugs, sharing, understanding, compassion, and togetherness no matter what else may or may not evolve outside of this marriage. Ceeboo
I think I agree with Hoops and Ceeboo here. If I were to ever conclude that God wants me out of the LDS Church, I would owe it to my wife to go to her and honestly tell her that. At that point she might very possibly tell me to pack my things and leave, and end up divorcing me. Still, it would be the right thing to do.
I love her very much, and would do almost anything I can think of to stay on good terms with her. But I am more committed to God than I am to her. So if God told me to leave the LDS Church, I would leave it, and if my wife decided that meant our marriage was through, I would accept that as one of the consequences.
I shouldn't be too hard on my wife. She did at one point tell me that if an angel appeared to me and told me that the Church wasn't true, then she also wanted an audience with that angel. That sounded like a perfectly reasonable request for her to make!
Mad Viking wrote:HEAVENLY FATHER: Remember those statement you made about black people and race mixing?
Brigham: I sure do God... I was just teaching your flock your will.
HEAVENLY FATHER: Umm... yeah... see that's the problem. What you said isn't actually true. That's not really how I feel about the matter. I'm actually cool with it. They're all my children and I don't really care about race. Now look... I don't fault you... You're just a man, and you're living in a time where those attitudes are prevelant. However, you've got to set the record straight about my stance on this issue. OK?
Like I said in the other post, this assumes that God doesn't have anything better to do with His time than correct Brigham's position. I think it's totally possible that in God's plan for taking His message to the world He realized that the best way to do that was through Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, even though He was well aware of Brigham's racist attitudes, and that He was also aware that the best time to remove the racist positions from the organization Brigham preserved was 1978.