Male Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and Non-Mormons.

[_MsJack]

marg ~ I'm not going to revisit your gripes with me on this thread any further. If you want me to start a new thread wherein I address them, I will. Probably not right now, because I have a lot going on class-wise and don't have the time, but if you want it in a week or so, it's yours.

I see so if he was short and a weakling you'd slap him around?

No, marg, it was just an expression. I generally don't take the phrase "slap you silly" as an actual threat of physical violence. I've always had kind of a weird sense of humor in this regard.

I grew up in a home where I was physically abused by both parents. Not often, but it happened. So I'm pretty darned anti-domestic-violence.

[_marg]

The computer I was on before was not working very well, so I'll continue where I left off.

As I said in a previous post the issue for her boils down to the moderation not protecting her or anyone from their family being disparaged on here and now that's been rectified. It's not about rectifying harassment of individuals.

You read your tea leaves wrong, marg. I don't have any fear of people from my real life seeing what jerks say about them here. I just believe family should be off-limits. The name of the forum is Mormon Discussons, and there are only so many layers of crap that I'm willing to wade through to get to the part where I actually get to discuss Mormonism. Vicious attacks on my family members who aren't involved isn't a layer that I'm willing to tolerate.

Who said you have a "fear" of family members being attacked? I agree the board is called Mormon Discussion..family should be off limits. We are in agreement on that.

I think that the moderators should do everything in their power to stop harassment of individuals, as such harassment is what drives good posters away from our forum. But in a free-speech environment, there's only so much they can do. Community members have to self-moderate in addition to speaking up when others are being harassed.

And do you speak up when your friends are being disrespectful to others? Frankly I don't really expect you to. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in all this.

And you never will, because marg is making stuff up.

The thread where she claims I jumped in and began badgering her in support of EA and Stak occurred here. Stak hadn't even commented on the thread when I jumped in,

Correct that particular issue I had with EA..but in my past dealings with stak and EA they support one another in their harassment of me. And as you have said Stak is your friend, and we know EA and Stak are chummy, you knew full well in involving yourself that was your bit as a friend of Stak, because in your thinking friends who harass should also be supported in their harassment.

and EA is someone I respect but not someone I'd call my buddy.

Right, so why were you getting involved.

I commented because I disagreed with what she was arguing, and I repeatedly told her as much on the thread in question;

It was more than that MS. Jack you aren't being honest, you were intent on badgering me. And it really wasn't because of my comment which was something to the effect that EA doesn't carry on many conversations with others. If I'm saying that EA has harassed me, where is your interest in finding out when and how as opposed to you desire to defend him against a rather innocuous comment of mine. This gets back to what I've been saying. You don't have problem being supportive of your friends in their harassment..so the issue is not about harrassment for you...if you are claiming it is then you are a hypocrite. I'm not saying EA is your friend but your motivation was you were supporting him by badgering me.

marg simply never showed enough respect for me to accept my words at face value.

I showed you respect in that threadd. I understood the game you were playing. It wasn't one post..you kept posting the same old same old, when the issue wasn't yours to involve yourself with. You even said EA doesn't need your help. What it boiled down to, was you were badgering me deliberately. I eventually said I wasn't going to read your last post, which I didn't. That isn't being disrespectful when I appreciated what your interest and motivation was.

Now marg, if you're going to keep on using threads completely unrelated to our past to air your sour grapes about me, I'm going to start a thread documenting the truth about our history and bump it every time you bring it up (a la beastie's "rcrockett libel" thread).

Do that Ms. Jack. The history started with you supporting a friend's malignment of me, then on another board you continued by sencouraging others to be disrespectful towards me..and when I ask you to explain, your response was in support of your behavior. If you think calling you a catty bitch for that behavior is out of line..go right ahead. Go get those threads.

I would very much like to not do that, but it beats the hell out of having to defend myself again and again every time you resurrect the same nonsense that I've already addressed. So stop for a second and think about if that's what you really want. I'll stop bringing up our past if you will.

I'm not mistreating you, badgering or being disrespectful. But in this thread I'm trying to clarify what the issues are... which you don't appreciate.

[_marg]

No, marg, it was just an expression. I generally don't take the phrase "slap you silly" as an actual threat of physical violence. I've always had kind of a weird sense of humor in this regard.

I grew up in a home where I was physically abused by both parents. Not often, but it happened. So I'm pretty darned anti-domestic-violence.

I didn't notice the "silly" part. I read it quickly and read 'slap him around'. I agree saying 'slap you/him silly' is an expression typically not taken seriously.

[_Yoda]

Marg....One thing I will say, regarding Ms. Jack's post on my old site, is that it is kind of a moot point since the whole site is gone, isn't it?

I honestly can't even remember exactly what was said. I am not even sure I read what Ms. Jack said about you before the board's demise.

I remember that Ms. Jack or you referenced it, and If I recall correctly, I thought it was some kind of in passing comment based on something that Scottie had said...just something in agreement with a slightly snarky comment about your posting style.

Whatever the case, since the whole thing is so foggy, can't we just move on? If it is something that really bothers you still, can you re-state what was said, or do you, perhaps have some type of screen shot since that thread is now gone?

I am sure that if there was something really awful said, that Ms. Jack would admit she was wrong, if that is the case. She has been pretty willing to make amends.

I will say that I am sorry that a website I created ended up containing material that has caused you such upset that you are still focusing on it. I am glad the site is gone.

[_MsJack]

Who said you have a "fear" of family members being attacked? I agree the board is called Mormon Discussion..family should be off limits. We are in agreement on that.

You said earlier in the thread:

Ms. Jack's real name to my understanding is well known to many people on this board. When someone on here says anything about her family, or about her marriage it can get back to her family and friends. And that can be problematic for her in ways we may not foresee.

That wasn't my issue with attacks on my family being allowed. I simply think they're ugly and out of line.

And do you speak up when your friends are being disrespectful to others?

I try to. I do reserve the right to tell my friends to back off in private so as not to publicly embarrass them.

I didn't comment on the thread that I linked to out of an alliance with Stak and EA. Frankly, that you're sticking to that story comes across as paranoid and more than a little pathetic.

It was more than that MS. Jack you aren't being honest, you were intent on badgering me.

Like I said, paranoid and more than a little pathetic, and I don't appreciate that you accuse me of lying. I also think the fact that you keep bringing this up again and again on multiple threads and rejecting my stated motivations for doing what I did counts as "badgering" far more than anything I've ever done to you.

If I'm saying that EA has harassed me, where is your interest in finding out when and how as opposed to you desire to defend him against a rather innocuous comment of mine.

You are welcome to link to where EA has "harassed" you. I haven't seen it from him. His comments on you and to you that I have seen have been sporadic and very brief. BUT I could be wrong.

Anyways, in a week or so, you can look forward to a new thread, all about you and me.

I remember that Ms. Jack or you referenced it, and If I recall correctly, I thought it was some kind of in passing comment based on something that Scottie had said...just something in agreement with a slightly snarky comment about your posting style.

Your memory is 100% accurate liz. I said to Scottie, "You really are the green marg of MDB." Within minutes I came over to MDB and posted this.

That was the only comment I ever made about marg over at your forum, and no one else said anything about her in that thread. Scottie said, "What does that even mean???" and that was the end of it.

Really worth starting WWIII over. But whatever.

[_marg]

Liz, keep in mind that when things are said in writing they tend to loom larger in mind than the writer may have intended. That I bring up her remark from your board, does not mean it's bothering me. I can acknowledge something without it being a big issue for myself. For me the actual remark isn't important, it is the intent and context of the remark.

Discussions evolve. I agreed with some of what honoretheos said and the discussion evolved to MsJack taking exception to that and then me pointing out..that she doesn't have much of a problem with harassment as long as she doesn't perceive it to be to her friends or they are doing the harassing. In order to support my argument because she objected it required me to provide context.

[_marg]

Ms Jack, I'm not being disrespectful but your latest post will have to wait until tomorrow, I don't want my whole night to be spent on this. After I read your post tomorrow I will only respond to it, if I see it potentially going somewhere..as opposed to escalating or continuing disagreement.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hi Jersey Girl.

I've seen the hateful things Cam has said to you in the past. I don't doubt that you have good cause to feel hurt by it. I'm not questioning that.

Wut? Honor, I'd have to have an actual relationship with someone to be hurt by their words. No, honor, I simply find it disgusting in a redundant sort of way.

You ask above that if I saw in Stak's OP a sideways sexist sentiment what Cam's behavior must be? I'm not disputing it was straight forward sexist. I'm not defending that. And this is getting back to the tu quoque question. I think we are confusing Cam's unquestionable bad behavior with my respect for how he stepped away contrasted with my frank disapproval of MsJack's subsequent behavior. The contrast seems so stark to me that to not say something in light of MsJack's post after Cam had left was unthinkable.

Okay.

While I understand your point and appreciate where you are coming from, I stand by my posts above. If I am alone in seeing it this way, that's fine.

No, you didn't understand my point.

[_marg]

Who said you have a "fear" of family members being attacked? I agree the board is called Mormon Discussion..family should be off limits. We are in agreement on that.

You said earlier in the thread:

Ms. Jack's real name to my understanding is well known to many people on this board. When someone on here says anything about her family, or about her marriage it can get back to her family and friends. And that can be problematic for her in ways we may not foresee.

That wasn't my issue with attacks on my family being allowed. I simply think they're ugly and out of line.

Well frankly Cam's remarks about your husband and your relationship were not as vicious and ugly as you appear to want to make them seem. A policy on here of removing derogatory remarks involving family should exist because it's the right thing to do, they are completely innocent of all this and it's quite possible that it might cause problems if they should find out. Cam's remark weren't any more vicious than what's often said on this board...and allowed.

And do you speak up when your friends are being disrespectful to others?

I try to. I do reserve the right to tell my friends to back off in private so as not to publicly embarrass them.

I didn't comment on the thread that I linked to out of an alliance with Stak and EA. Frankly, that you're sticking to that story comes across as paranoid and more than a little pathetic.

Sorry I will never believe you that your motivation was to defend EA, against an innocuous comment I made, when the issue had nothing to do with you. More than once you've talked about this notion of friends supporting one another, you've said it to me, you've said in in this thread. It's was obvious what you were doing. I appreciate EA isn't your friend but you perceived supporting him even when you fully acknowledged he didn't need it as being supportive of STak. That's the game you play. There was no other reason for you to get involved. And since when have we ever carried on a conversation?

It was more than that MS. Jack you aren't being honest, you were intent on badgering me.

Like I said, paranoid and more than a little pathetic, and I don't appreciate that you accuse me of lying. I also think the fact that you keep bringing this up again and again on multiple threads and rejecting my stated motivations for doing what I did counts as "badgering" far more than anything I've ever done to you.

Let's refocus. We agree attacks on family are inappropriate, fortunately now mods will delete. Where we don't agree is that you were totally innocent, nor do I agree that Cam's remark were any more ugly and vicious than many other people's remarks made on here including by your so called friends who you thanked for speaking out against Cam. Yes I ended up bringing up our past exchanges. Why? because you were continuing on trying to make it out that your poor husband got really angry at Cam's insult after you told him about it,so we are all supposed to think how terrible Cam is. It's hypocritical Ms Jack. Just because his remarks were insulting of your family does not make them more vicious and ugly than many attack posts on here to individuals which you typically are silent about. Whether something said is vicious or malicious also depends on context. In a heated exchange it is understandable how words said can become vicious. But I think it's much more malicious to malign someone when one is calm and collected and the person being maligned isn't even involved in the discussion...especially if it occurs a number of times and seems deliberate.

If I'm saying that EA has harassed me, where is your interest in finding out when and how as opposed to you desire to defend him against a rather innocuous comment of mine.

You are welcome to link to where EA has "harassed" you. I haven't seen it from him. His comments on you and to you that I have seen have been sporadic and very brief. BUT I could be wrong.

I can't be bothered linking. Do a search on marg and atheist and you'll find another post by EA ..along the same lines as the other one. I agree his comments have been sporadic and brief..but they come at times when I'm not involved in the discussion, or they come when I'm in a discussion and he simply pops in with a brief attack and no further comment. The last one I commented on you involved yourself. But the issue you addressed was minor...so I eventually stopped reading your posts. Keep in mind the context of the recent previous things you've done and said, which while they seem rather minor, I'm seeing a pattern.

Anyways, in a week or so, you can look forward to a new thread, all about you and me.

Have fun in your research ..I look forward to your results. I will be leaving for Memphis next Tuesday for about 10 days. I will have internet access but not sure if on holidays I'll spend any time here.

I remember that Ms. Jack or you referenced it, and If I recall correctly, I thought it was some kind of in passing comment based on something that Scottie had said...just something in agreement with a slightly snarky comment about your posting style.

Your memory is 100% accurate liz. I said to Scottie, "You really are the green marg of MDB." Within minutes I came over to MDB and posted this.

That was the only comment I ever made about marg over at your forum, and no one else said anything about her in that thread. Scottie said, "What does that even mean???" and that was the end of it.

Really worth starting WWIII over. But whatever.

And this gets back to intent and context. What was your intent with duplicating stak's remark over there? I've already had stak explain his intent..and apparently he said it because of some history he's heard about me, and I supposedly enter threads not knowing what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what that has to do with green marg but whatever. With Blixa's coaxing off board, he linked to a thread to support that accusation. It's too bad people on here don't often follow long detailed discussions ..because in actual fact in that thread he was the one who didn't know what he was talking about when he argued 'induction requires form'.but he'll not acknowledge that. I was appreciative of Tarksi's comments and his taking some interest. So what was your purpose and intent with your remark? Keep in mind you weren't talking to one person in private you were talking to a group of people from this board, so what were you trying to accomplish? What had I said up to that point that prompted your remark? Or were you just wanting to support your friend again, because 'that's what friends do'.

[_MsJack]

Well frankly Cam's remarks about your husband and your relationship were not as vicious and ugly as you appear to want to make them seem. [SNIP] What had I said up to that point that prompted your remark? Or were you just wanting to support your friend again, because 'that's what friends do'.

I think it is a shame that you are still badgering me and harassing me in support of your good friend CamNC4Me, which is the only reason that you re-entered this thread when you did. You say that you are against harassment on this forum, but you are willing to engage in it yourself and speak up on behalf of your friends who engage in it. You are not being honest, and you are a hypocrite.

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