Book of Mormon geography

[_Darth J]

What's your favorite part of the Book of Mormon that talks about this native populace they were interbreeding with?
Do you have maybe a chapter and verse you can cite?

It must be in the sealed section of the Book of Mormon with the Nephite recipe on how best to prepare Tapir.

Not in the text of the Book of Mormon: check.

Go ahead, take your time. It's not like there have been 182 years to find it so far.

182 years huh? Is hyperbole the new way to make preposterous demands seem valid?

The Book of Mormon was first published in: 1830

The year it is right now: 2012

2012
-1830
182

[Guest]

I think the whole question is preposterous. There is no way of placing the Nephite cities because there is no independent method of doing so at this time. I'm not saying that will always be the case, but you simply can't demand a lost city be found when there is no concete way way to identify which city it is (if any of them).

So in summary, a large polity of pre-Columbian Hebrew Christians persists for a thousand years, and in 182 years, we can't find any cities anywhere in the Americas that cause archaeologists to say, "Hey! This isn't Aztec or Mayan or anything else we have found previously! It must be some other heretofore unknown civilization of Hebrew Christians that had steel swords, writing, agriculture, a sophisticated government, pieces of metal used as a medium of exchange, etc.!"

And even if it is identified, which I believe it will be eventually, I really doubt those that don't believe in the Mormonism will join.

And even if it is not identified, which I will believe it never will be, I really doubt that those who do believe in Mormonism will leave.

First, you are engaging in hyperbole again. 182 years of significant study of the region in question has never occurred. Second, how recently were the lost and previously unknown Olmec cities found? Third, how recently were we even able to read any of the Mayan script?

I think your view is a naïve understanding of the history of discovery in Mesoamerica and doesn't reflect the many discoveries recently in the area. If it did, you'd understand that the view of the Mesoamerican civilizations is dramatically evolving now and will continue to do so into the future.

Personally, I'll let archeology discover what it is going to discover and not impose my preconceptions upon it. I've found that people that claim things are impossible have a severe lack of imagination or understanding of our own limited knowledge of science and the real world around us.

[Guest]

Yeah. I've read about the mound builders. Please make the case for how they fit Book of Mormon population, technology, and geography dynamics. I'm interested in reading your argument. Thank you, lulu.

If that's where you're coming from: as Europeans and European-Americans moved in from the East coast in the 1700's and 1800s, they discovered the Moundbuilders. They had no idea what to make of them.

They were quite sure that the Native Americans they knew were too primative to have made the mounds or the artifacts that were found in them. At the same time, more that a few European Americans thought that Indians were the lost tribes.

Some European Americans thought that the Native Americans had killed off the Moundbuilders since, to them, there did not appear to be any more Moundbuilders around and no other explanation of what happened to them.

There are both Hopewellian and Adenian Mound sites in western New York. Earily white settlers tended to conflate drumlins with Moundbuilder mounds.

Joseph Smith writes a book about how Native Americans are from Palestine and they killed off the Moundbuilders.

Most Americans don't have anymore clue about Moundbuilders than Thomas Jefferson did. And they certainly have no idea of how advanced they were. If they did, they might have a clearer idea of what Joseph Smith was up to, leaving aside for now his selection of place names and description of the geography.

Better to keep the focus on Central America, let Rodney Meldrum be declared anathem, apostate and heretical. He hits too close to home.

Timeline fits beautifully.

There's a clear North American setting for the Book of Mormon, just not the one Mormons would like.

If you want more on Moundbuilders, let me know. I was going to post on Martin Marty, Louis Magley and historiography, but this will do.

[_Tobin]

The Book of Mormon was first published in: 1830

The year it is right now: 2012

2012
-1830
182

Congratulations. You can do simple math and that is about all you've demonstrated.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Are Apologists retarded?

Honestly?

Yes. Yes, they're mentally retarded.

- VRDRC

[_Tobin]

At least that way they won't have to worry about the two Cumorahs and other statements by Joseph Smith.

Please provide a single direct quote from Joseph Smith referring to Mormon Hill as the Hill Cumorah.

[_beastie]

At least that way they won't have to worry about the two Cumorahs and other statements by Joseph Smith.

Please provide a single direct quote from Joseph Smith referring to Mormon Hill as the Hill Cumorah.

I wasn't talking about a direct statement about Cumorah. I'm talking about the other things Joseph Smith said that clearly conveyed he believed the Book of Mormon took place in North America (and probably South America, too).

[_beastie]

Yeah. I've read about the mound builders. Please make the case for how they fit Book of Mormon population, technology, and geography dynamics. I'm interested in reading your argument. Thank you, lulu.

If that's where you're coming from: as Europeans and European-Americans moved in from the East coast in the 1700's and 1800s, they discovered the Moundbuilders. They had no idea what to make of them.

They were quite sure that the Native Americans they knew were too primative to have made the mounds or the artifacts that were found in them. At the same time, more that a few European Americans thought that Indians were the lost tribes.

Some European Americans thought that the Native Americans had killed off the Moundbuilders since, to them, there did not appear to be any more Moundbuilders around and no other explanation of what happened to them.

There are both Hopewellian and Adenian Mound sites in western New York. Earily white settlers tended to conflate drumlins with Moundbuilder mounds.

Joseph Smith writes a book about how Native Americans are from Palestine and they killed off the Moundbuilders.

Most Americans don't have anymore clue about Moundbuilders than Thomas Jefferson did. And they certainly have no idea of how advanced they were. If they did, they might have a clearer idea of what Joseph Smith was up to, leaving aside for now his selection of place names and description of the geography.

Better to keep the focus on Central America, let Rodney Meldrum be declared anathem, apostate and heretical. He hits too close to home.

Timeline fits beautifully.

There's a clear North American setting for the Book of Mormon, just not the one Mormons would like.

If you want more on Moundbuilders, let me know. I was going to post on Martin Marty, Louis Magley and historiography, but this will do.

No, it won't do.

No one is suggesting that the Moundbuilders didn't exist.

The problem is that the Moundbuilders simply did not have the social and political complexity required to fit the Book of Mormon. See my previous quotes from, you know, a book.

[_beastie]

I challenge anyone to provide evidence from respected scholars that show that ANY area in the New World, OTHER than Mesoamerica, had the population density and complexity of civilization that reached the very top level of a complex chiefdom, or, more likely, city-state.

beastie do you know of some readings I can do that talk about how the population in New York was not big enough for the Book of Mormon population?

Lulu is correct that this would be the Moundbuilders. You can easily find information about the development of their society. Do searches for phrases such as "social complexity" "political organization", "Population density", "advanced chiefdoms", "social stratification", along with Moundbuilders, Late Woodland phase.

Here's one summary:

http://www.nps.gov/archeology/feature/timeline.htm

Book of Mormon period:

The mound sites slowly expanded into hubs of commerce and politics. The earlier era's rounded burial mounds, mostly cone-shaped, were supplanted by massive platforms where the elite built their homes, staged events, and laid ancestors to rest. Most residents, however, lived in settlements huddled around the periphery of the platforms.

See my earlier quote about those settlements NOT showing signs of social stratification.

After 1000 AD

Wealth solidified the elite’s position at the top of the increasingly complex society that evolved to erect cities along the river.

THIS is the phase that would excite Book of Mormon believers, but it's far too late.

[_Tobin]

At least that way they won't have to worry about the two Cumorahs and other statements by Joseph Smith.

Please provide a single direct quote from Joseph Smith referring to Mormon Hill as the Hill Cumorah.

I wasn't talking about a direct statement about Cumorah. I'm talking about the other things Joseph Smith said that clearly conveyed he believed the Book of Mormon took place in North America (and probably South America, too).

Joseph Smith was a nincompoop. He had no idea where the Book of Mormon took place.