Facsimile 3

[_zeezrom]

Dang, Tobin! When did you learn Kung Fu?

[_Equality]

The scenario for which Tobin argues in favor faces some significant logical challenges. If Joseph Smith claimed to be translating by the gift and power of God, but he got the translation completely wrong (which Tobin acknowledges with respect to the representations on Facsimile 3), then there are really only three possibilities:
(1) Joseph Smith did not translate by the gift and power of God (he lied about being able to do so);
(2) Joseph Smith enjoyed the gift and power of God, but God allowed him to get the translations wrong and never bothered to correct him or any of the Mormon prophets over the last, oh, 180 years, which means God is a dishonest prick and a trickster;
(3) There is no God.

Numbers 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive propositions.

[_Tobin]

The scenario for which Tobin argues in favor faces some significant logical challenges. If Joseph Smith claimed to be translating by the gift and power of God, but he got the translation completely wrong (which Tobin acknowledges with respect to the representations on Facsimile 3), then there are really only three possibilities:
(1) Joseph Smith did not translate by the gift and power of God (he lied about being able to do so);
(2) Joseph Smith enjoyed the gift and power of God, but God allowed him to get the translations wrong and never bothered to correct him or any of the Mormon prophets over the last, oh, 180 years, which means God is a dishonest prick and a trickster;
(3) There is no God.

Numbers 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive propositions.

Or (4) Joseph Smith revealed the original writings of Abraham and the papyri were merely the impetus for this revelation.

[_Shulem]

The evidence proves no such thing. The evidence shows he was ignorant of what the papyri was, that he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and needed to rely on the Lord for any revelation.

Modern Egyptology proves that the claims offered up by Joseph Smith are wrong. Ignorance has nothing to do with it! He claimed he got his knowledge from God but was actually lying about it. Joseph Smith did not feign ignorance but claimed that the Spirit of the living God was filling his mind with truth and light as he wrote the Book of Abraham and provided the Explanations of the Facsimile.

Again, it is only because of modern Egyptology that we are able to tell that Joseph Smith was a liar because of the evidence he submitted to his church for in behalf of God.

. . . . "as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth" (Joseph Smith July 1835 HC:235, 236)



Paul O

[_Tobin]

The evidence proves no such thing. The evidence shows he was ignorant of what the papyri was, that he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics, and needed to rely on the Lord for any revelation.

Modern Egyptology proves that the claims offered up by Joseph Smith are wrong. Ignorance has nothing to do with it! He claimed he got his knowledge from God but was actually lying about it. Joseph Smith did not feign ignorance but claimed that the Spirit of the living God was filling his mind with truth and light as he wrote the Book of Abraham and provided the Explanations of the Facsimile.

Again, it is only because of modern Egyptology that we are able to tell that Joseph Smith was a liar because of the evidence he submitted to his church for in behalf of God.

. . . . "as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth" (Joseph Smith July 1835 HC:235, 236)



Paul O

Modern Egyptology shows Joseph Smith couldn't read the papyri. It is unreasonable to believe he could in the first place. And since the papyri aren't the source of the Book of Abraham, merely the impetus, it says nothing about Joseph Smith being inspired by God.

[_Shulem]

On the contrary, the Church teaches that the Book of Mormon narrative was literally on the plates Smith claimed to have translates, just as the Book of Abraham narrative was literally written on the Egyptian papyri in his possession.

Yep, we have gold plates and papyrus. Joseph Smith claimed to translate from both sources by the gift and power of God. Note also in the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 he says:

"The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time."

Now I ask, by what "RIGHT" did Joseph Smith have to translate the Facsimile as he did the Book of Mormon?

Tobin! By what "RIGHT"?

Paul O

[_Cicero]

And since the papyri aren't the source of the Book of Abraham, merely the impetus, it says nothing about Joseph Smith being inspired by God.

So Joseph didn't know what he was doing? How does that make any sense?

As Equality just put it, that means "God is a dishonest prick and a trickster."

[_zeezrom]

Or (4) Joseph Smith revealed the original writings of Abraham and the papyri were merely the impetus for this revelation.

But Tobin, this is a story involving Egypt and Pharaoh.

[_Tobin]

And since the papyri aren't the source of the Book of Abraham, merely the impetus, it says nothing about Joseph Smith being inspired by God.

So Joseph didn't know what he was doing? How does that make any sense?
As Equality just put it, that means "God is a dishonest prick and a trickster."

Not really. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him him to translate it. You have to bear in mind, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect and just as human as the rest of us.

[Guest]

Or (4) Joseph Smith revealed the original writings of Abraham and the papyri were merely the impetus for this revelation.

But Tobin, this is a story involving Egypt and Pharaoh.

So? There is no reason to think the Egyptians would have any interest in preserving a story about Abraham and his myths. They were pagans and had no motive to do so. They would write about their stories and myths.