Drifting wrote: Tobin, do you believe that The Book of Mormon is a true historical record of events?
It depends just how accurate the record is. I am sure that much was left out in the abridgement of the book. But how can I be sure that the recorders got everything right? But if Joseph Smith wrote it, I would need to know how he did it without a manuscript. We need to remember that quite a lot of paper would be needed to write that book. Not to mention feathered pens, ink bottles and time. And then, write it in secret without ever being discovered. Plus, the destroying of the mistake paper or rough drafts. And then spilling the ink on the table or on the hands...etc. No easy business writing a book then. It did take money also.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Drifting wrote: Tobin, do you believe that The Book of Mormon is a true historical record of events?
It depends just how accurate the record is. I am sure that much was left out in the abridgement of the book. But how can I be sure that the recorders got everything right? But if Joseph Smith wrote it, I would need to know how he did it without a manuscript. We need to remember that quite a lot of paper would be needed to write that book. Not to mention feathered pens, ink bottles and time. And then, write it in secret without ever being discovered. Plus, the destroying of the mistake paper or rough drafts. And then spilling the ink on the table or on the hands...etc. No easy business writing a book then. It did take money also.
Firstly, you're not Tobin. Secondly, we are four pages into this thread and you have yet to quote something, anything, from The Book of Mormon that supports your numerous erroneous assertions and beliefs. Instead of answering Tobin's questions get quoting!
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Mary wrote:Sadly Tobin, no more ridiculous than you proposing that (if I read you rightly) the Nephites were racist, that they assigned that racism to God, and in so doing Joseph Smith, Brigham Young (in particular) and then every prophet up until 1978 instituted and upheld a destructive and 'racist' view of our black brothers and sisters to the extent that blacks were not deemed 'worthy' to enter the temple, or to participate in priesthood. Both of which are considered essential in Mormon Doctrine for entrance to the highest degree of glory.
That racist theology being so pervasive that Randy Bott in 2012 can still express his 'racist' opinions to the news media.
That's one shed load of racist practices and beliefs and all based on various Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price passages, and interestingly (as I have said before) 18th century ideas on the curse of ham/cain as being a 'black skin' and taught and used to justify the slave trade. Itself a horrible and unchristian practice, which the Quakers (and not Joseph Smith) quickly recognised as such.
There is no evidence in Israel at the time Lehi was supposed to have left, of any doctrine, practice or belief that Black Africans or dark skin was a curse from God. That is a thoroughly modern (17th Century) invention. There is evidence that black African races were known to various peoples at that time as is shown in Egyptian Art for instance. Slavery was based around the spoils of war and being unable to pay off a debt, not around the colour of one's skin.
What one earth are you talking about? Racism was NOT a 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, or 20th century invention. It doesn't matter when or where you are born. People disassociate, ridicule, shun, and so on people that are different from themselves. It is just human nature. Your whole line of reasoning is just patently absurd.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Many books that are pure fiction contain uplifting messages of one kind or another. If that is what you feel you need, why not pick an uplifting fiction that is honest about being a fiction? Is it just that you were brought up to revere the Book of Mormon and the habit of doing so is just too strong to break?
I have to be honest here and say that my favourite scriptures were always the New Testament despite their faults and failings. Having sat next to my mother and father in the early 70's in the short duration that they were active, and listening to them talk afterwards about how they couldn't understand why talks were always about characters in the Book of Mormon rather than about Jesus, this probably coloured my view.
As a missionary I always felt that the benefit of the Book of Mormon was as it stated on the label. Another testament of Jesus.
Nowadays my interests lie in Early Christianity, though I do admit to being impressed by Grant and Heather Hardy's podcast on the Book of Mormon with Mormon Stories. http://mormonstories.org/250-251-grant- ... holarship/ Worth a listen to, even for unbelievers like me.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Tobin wrote:What one earth are you talking about? Racism was NOT a 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, or 20th century invention. It doesn't matter when or where you are born. People disassociate, ridicule, shun, and so on people that are different from themselves. It is just human nature. Your whole line of reasoning is just patently absurd.
Tobin's right.
God introduced discrimination on the basis of skin colour:
And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Which He reinforced in the Americas:
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote: What one earth are you talking about? Racism was NOT a 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, or 20th century invention. It doesn't matter when or where you are born. People disassociate, ridicule, shun, and so on people that are different from themselves. It is just human nature. Your whole line of reasoning is just patently absurd.
Tobin, Racism of the type eerily similar to that outlined in the Book of Mormon based on a curse (black skin) is similar to the curse of Cain/Ham doctrine espoused by those in Joseph's time to justify slavery. What part of that do you not get?
I've already said that the Israelites themselves would have been well aware of racism based on tribal affiliation since they were victims of it as recounted in the Old Testament on numerous occasions.
Are we talking past each other here?
The curse of Ham (as outlined in Genesis) was most likely the curse of slavery, and used to justify the enslavement of the Canaanites by Israel. Canaanites were not black as far as I am aware but shared the Semitic heritage of the Israelites. ie - they were the same colour.
Tobin wrote: What one earth are you talking about? Racism was NOT a 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, or 20th century invention. It doesn't matter when or where you are born. People disassociate, ridicule, shun, and so on people that are different from themselves. It is just human nature. Your whole line of reasoning is just patently absurd.
Tobin, Racism of the type eerily similar to that outlined in the Book of Mormon based on a curse (black skin) is similar to the curse of Cain/Ham doctrine espoused by those in Joseph's time to justify slavery. What part of that do you not get?
I've already said that the Israelites themselves would have been well aware of racism based on tribal affiliation since they were victims of it as recounted in the Old Testament on numerous occasions.
Are we talking past each other here?
We might be. I've stated the Nephites made racist statements and that BY did as well as other early Church leaders (though I blame him for the blacks and the priesthood fiasco). I don't endorse or believe racism has anything to do with God or the gospel and where such expressions are found, they reflect human bias only.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:We might be. I've stated the Nephites made racist statements and that BY did as well as other early Church leaders (though I blame him for the blacks and the priesthood fiasco). I don't endorse or believe racism has anything to do with God or the gospel and where such expressions are found, they reflect human bias only.
So...you are saying the Nephites were mistaken about what God did or did not want/do...hmmm...that kind of casts doubt on the rest of the contents don't you think? Especially as Joseph Smith himself proclaimed the Book was 'the most correct' book.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote: I don't endorse or believe racism has anything to do with God or the gospel and where such expressions are found, they reflect human bias only.
I agree there Tobin.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
