Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

[_Shulem]

Folks, I kid you not. Mormon Jesus had too much to drink when he slurred this revelation, barely able to spit the Greek words out and stupid Joe Smith actually wrote it down:

And let the higher part of the inner court be dedicated unto me for the school of mine apostles, saith Son Ahman; or, in other words, Alphus; or, in other words, Omegus; even Jesus Christ your Lord. Amen.

[_zerinus]

Joseph's use of Jacobean English and its implications are fascinating to me. I did a deep dive into this once. The following is what I found:

In proper Jacobean English, thou, thee, thine etc. are informal singular second person. This is the way you talk to your friend or a subordinate. It seems strange to us now but if you don't believe me, just read a Shakespeare play where a king talks to one of his subjects. The king will address his subject as "thou" and the subject will address the king as "you." "You" and "your" are formal second person pronouns. When you are speaking to a group, you always use the formal second person. The formality is kind of inverted from how we use these today.

(As an aside: I had read somewhere that the King James Bible translation committee purposely used "thou, thee, thine" in conversations between men and God because they felt that the source material implied very informal modes of address between God and man both directions. They wanted to show that man and God were conversing as friends, not as Private to General. The modern LDS church inverts this with its insistence on very formal address to God for "reverence" or whatever their rationale is.)

As a non-native speaker of Jacobean English, Joseph Smith doesn't always stay consistent in his mode of address in his writings. You can catch him going from ye/you/your to thee/thou/thine in the same sentence or thought a few times in the Book of Mormon (the apologetics for this are funny to read) and a bunch of times in the D&C. These are mistakes that any idiot who was raised in the 1600s in England would not have made, but they are exactly what you would expect if a guy in the 1800s were attempting to mimic archaic speech that he didn't normally use. It's amusing that Joseph is placing these simple mistakes into the mouth of Almighty God.

The silly nonsense continues, and the ignorance of the critics are embarrassingly displayed for all to see. "Thee," "thou," and "thine" are singular versions of the pronouns; whereas "you," "your," and "yours" are the plural versions. In modern English that distinction has been lost, but in those days it was still in use. If you were referring to a single person you would use the singular version, and if you were referring to two or more persons, you would use the plural versions. In many modern languages that distinction still exists. English is a bit of an exception in that regard. This distinction also exists in biblical Hebrew. You have the plural versions of the pronouns and the singular versions. The reason why you find those in the KJV is because it is a literal translation, and renders it exactly as it is in the original. If the original uses a singular, it is translated into a singular, and were the original uses a plural, it is translated into a plural. It is as simple as that. It has nothing to do with being formal or informal.

[_fetchface]

utter crap

Zerinus, read the beginning of King Lear. Lear addresses the group as "you." Lear addresses individuals in the group as "thee." The individuals in the group always address him as "you."

That's because "you" is both formal second person singular and the normal way to address a group in second person plural, formal or informal.

Joseph botched it. He was not a native speaker of Jacobean English. Denying this fact doesn't make it false.

[_Shulem]

The hallowed language that the LDS church pushes on its members is for one reason only -- keep the members feeling subordinate to the LDS God and the leaders of the church. This business of showing respect is nothing but a front to brainwash the mind into thinking they need to be under subjection of something, whether it be God or the General Authorities. It's a mindset and a form of conditioning.

Joseph Smith used the hallowed language in an attempt to make his fabricated revelations and stories look genuine. That's all that was. The church today wants people praying in that silly hallowed language to make them feel subject to higher things.

The best prayers I ever had in Mormonism was when I prayed to my imaginary God as if he was friend and used every day language in a soft tone. Leaving off the hallowed language and just talking like he was my best buddy and friend. Those were some really good prayers! The hallowed language was a hindrance and just made me feel fake or like I was pretentious.

Hallowed language today in LDS church prayers is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Stupid Mormons.

[_zerinus]

Zerinus, read the beginning of King Lear. Lear addresses the group as "you." Lear addresses individuals in the group as "thee." The individuals in the group always address him as "you."

That's because "you" is both formal second person singular and the normal way to address a group in second person plural, formal or informal.

Joseph botched it. He was not a native speaker of Jacobean English. Denying this fact doesn't make it false.

Read what I said. It is true that the word “you,” which is the plural version of singular personal pronouns “thee” and “thou,” is also used (or was used) to address a single person in a polite, formal, or honorific manner. That is quite correct. But that is beside the point. It is a non-issue with regard to the subject we are discussing. The question of why the words “thee” and “thou” etc. are found in the KJV has nothing to do with that. It is purely a translation issue. Where in the original Hebrew (or Greek) texts a singular personal pronoun is used, it is translated into singular into English; and likewise where in the original the plural is used, it is translated into English using the equivalent plural. That is the only reason for the ocurance of those words in the KJV. And the same applies to the Book of Mormon. Formal and informal has nothing to do with any of it.

[_Maksutov]

The hallowed language that the LDS church pushes on its members is for one reason only -- keep the members feeling subordinate to the LDS God and the leaders of the church. This business of showing respect is nothing but a front to brainwash the mind into thinking they need to be under subjection of something, whether it be God or the General Authorities. It's a mindset and a form of conditioning.

Joseph Smith used the hallowed language in an attempt to make his fabricated revelations and stories look genuine. That's all that was. The church today wants people praying in that silly hallowed language to make them feel subject to higher things.

The best prayers I ever had in Mormonism was when I prayed to my imaginary God as if he was friend and used every day language in a soft tone. Leaving off the hallowed language and just talking like he was my best buddy and friend. Those were some really good prayers! The hallowed language was a hindrance and just made me feel fake or like I was pretentious.

Hallowed language today in LDS church prayers is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Stupid Mormons.

Remember, prayers and other sonorous pieties must be delivered in full Priesthood Voice.

[_Shulem]

Folks, I need to point out something that is very import about this topic. It adds a new dimension on Jesus's Greek revelation of Alpha & Omega to St John in the Book of Revelations. Of course, unlike the Nephites in the Book of Mormon, it makes sense that St John knew the full implications of what the First and the Last entailed and undoubtedly he understood how the letters of the Greek alphabet corresponded to the concept. Mormons are prone to credit St. John and his revelations:

It was this same Jesus Christ who gave revelations to his prophets and revealed to them also through John the Revelator: 'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last'

The revelation of the Greek Alpha & Omega was given to St. John some 50 or more years after Jesus' death and recorded in the Book of Revelation. But the same Jesus supposedly gave the Greek revelation to the Nephites right after his resurrection many years before the Book of Revelation was written. This credits the Book of Mormon to being the original source and first known material in which this concept was written. Now how stupid is that? Nephites didn't even know Greek!

The Book of Mormon claim is preposterous and Joseph Smith's translation is a joke.

Stupid Mormons.

[_fetchface]

Zerinus, read the beginning of King Lear. Lear addresses the group as "you." Lear addresses individuals in the group as "thee." The individuals in the group always address him as "you."

That's because "you" is both formal second person singular and the normal way to address a group in second person plural, formal or informal.

Joseph botched it. He was not a native speaker of Jacobean English. Denying this fact doesn't make it false.

Read what I said. It is true that the word “you,” which is the plural version of singular personal pronouns “thee” and “thou,” is also used (or was used) to address a single person in a polite, formal, or honorific manner. That is quite correct. But that is beside the point. It is a non-issue with regard to the subject we are discussing. The question of why the words “thee” and “thou” etc. are found in the KJV has nothing to do with that. It is purely a translation issue. Where in the original Hebrew (or Greek) texts a singular personal pronoun is used, it is translated into singular into English; and likewise where in the original the plural is used, it is translated into English using the equivalent plural. That is the only reason for the ocurance of those words in the KJV. And the same applies to the Book of Mormon. Formal and informal has nothing to do with any of it.

I have no idea what you are on about or what point you think you are making.

[_Shulem]

I have no idea what you are on about or what point you think you are making.

I read it twice and gave up. Bear in mind you are dealing with someone who makes extremely stupid statements. Zerinus rejectes modern Egyptology and the written records of ancient Egypt on papyrus, tomb walls, temples, and monuments, for the hope that Joseph Smith knew something that modern Egyptologists haven't been able to figure out. The LDS church has reduced an Egyptian god to a slave and are fine with that. Mormons are capable of all kinds of devious things. They are a dishonest people, a religious plague.

See my signature below:

[_zerinus]

I have no idea what you are on about or what point you think you are making.

That makes two of us then, because I have no idea what you are talking about either.