MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_Aero]

I'm not sure that zerinus is implying that his faith is blind.

It is fairly obvious, however, that "if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it."

And if we "know it" we are less free to choose.

That's not true. The only way to truly make a valid decision is with the greatest amount of knowledge possible. That doesn't remove the choice you have to make. You still have to make it. Perfect knowledge does not remove free will. It's actually the only time you can truly exercise free will. You can only truly make a choice when you fully understand the consequences of making that choice.

Just ask the 1/3 of the host of Heaven that made a choice will full knowledge from God. They had perfect knowledge of his plan and made a choice anyway. Their free will was not taken away from them with the knowledge they received.

People know smoking is bad for them and they still do it. The human condition is filled with people making "bad" choices based on knowledge of the consequences.

[_Themis]

I do feel at a disadvantage trying to describe my faith and why I have faith. It's not easily done. It's sort of a personal thing. And when people of faith do try and describe their experience, it sometimes gets a bit muddled in the telling because we're trying to describe something that is not readily discerned/understood by those that don't have faith.

Problem is the church has many articles and talks doing just that. You also seem to forget you are talking to some people who had plenty of faith for many years. ya it's super muddy, and DRw's OP gives an explanation that accounts for these experiences. You say these experiences from God come through these explanations of mind and body, but you avoid telling how you can tell the difference. You asserted you could to some degree, and you suggested you could explain it but ran away saying we needed to experience it ourselves. Most of us know enough about both sides to know you avoid talking about it because your explanations cannot differentiate between what the body is capable of, and what comes supposedly from God. It doesn't prove it is all from the mind, but we also don't have good evidence it is not. This is why much better evidence should not be ignored.

[_DrW]

I'm not sure that zerinus is implying that his faith is blind.

It is fairly obvious, however, that "if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it."

And if we "know it" we are less free to choose.

That's not true. The only way to truly make a valid decision is with the greatest amount of knowledge possible. That doesn't remove the choice you have to make. You still have to make it. Perfect knowledge does not remove free will. It's actually the only time you can truly exercise free will. You can only truly make a choice when you fully understand the consequences of making that choice.

Just ask the 1/3 of the host of Heaven that made a choice will full knowledge from God. They had perfect knowledge of his plan and made a choice anyway. Their free will was not taken away from them with the knowledge they received.

People know smoking is bad for them and they still do it. The human condition is filled with people making "bad" choices based on knowledge of the consequences.

Right you are, Aero!

MG should perhaps spend a bit more time reading (non-fiction rather than religion), as well as thinking - and a bit less time writing. Were he to do so, I'm confident that he could come up with more defensible positions.

[_Tator]

MG I'm sorry I made you wawawawawawawawawa cry.

[_mentalgymnast]

Back at a time when I was where you are currently at, I did however, rely on the fact that others told/shared with me that they had been able to...over time...tell the difference. At the time I questioned that. Just as you do. It took time and my own experiences/feelings/thoughts along the way to come to a different point of view. Not that I'm an absolute expert.

You know where I am currently at?

Wild guess. Correct me if needed.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I hear where you're coming from. That would be cool to have a face-to-face. All I can really say to that...is good luck, man. I really don't think God is going to do a 'face to face' with every person on the planet. If you're actually waiting for that to happen...see ya' later.

And if He does it for you, He better dang well do it for me and the other seven and a half billion people. Oh wait, one just died in Sarajevo and He didn't get to them on time. Oops!

Aarrgh... another one bit the dust in Fuyang, China...and God was up in Siberia doing a face-to-face with Uygun the Yakut. C'mon, God, get a movin' so you can get to The Soap Maker!

Regards,
MG

What a dick answer.

How so? How would you arrange for a 'face-to-face' for yourself and everyone else on the planet with God? I'm simply pointing out some logistics problems. But go for it, I'm open to some suggestions as to how God might do it.

Soap Face and others have suggested that this might be the way in which they might believe. I'm saying, good luck with that.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

How so? How would you arrange for a 'face-to-face' for yourself and everyone else on the planet with God? I'm simply pointing out some logistics problems. But go for it, I'm open to some suggestions as to how God might do it.

Soap Face and others have suggested that this might be the way in which they might believe. I'm saying, good luck with that.

Regards,
MG

Well. To answer your question we'd need to know your god's left and right limits on the power he possesses over space and time. The floor is yours and then I'll give you an answer.

- Doc

[_mentalgymnast]

...you claimed one can differentiate between spiritual phenomena and simple constructs/fabrications of the mind through ‘practice’. I’m simply enquiring as to what, specifically, is involved in that practicing and how that practice leads to being able to differentiate. What are the key discernible differences between spiritual phenomena and simple constructs/fabrications of the mind that you have uncovered through practice?

Ruminating after the fact. HIndsight is always better than foresight. There are experiences that I've had during my life in which as I look at them in hindsight it appears to me that there were other factors that may have entered into the equation other than pure chance and/or self induced/originating thought. And it is because of the nature and composition of folks on this board that I am unwilling to share these experiences/occurrences. I'll just have to take the hit on that one. I don't feel comfortable, at all, sharing here in this place.

Sorry.

Could I have been somehow mistaken? Sure. But for me these experiences/occurrences were real and I'd just as well not deny that they happened in the way that I later interpreted them. And, truth be told, more often than not these times of what I might refer to as 'spiritual enlightenment' were made/composed of simple stuff. Although a few have been more than that.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm not sure that zerinus is implying that his faith is blind.

It is fairly obvious, however, that "if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it."

And if we "know it" we are less free to choose.

That's not true. The only way to truly make a valid decision is with the greatest amount of knowledge possible. That doesn't remove the choice you have to make. You still have to make it. Perfect knowledge does not remove free will. It's actually the only time you can truly exercise free will. You can only truly make a choice when you fully understand the consequences of making that choice.

I've asked Soap Maker the same question I'll ask you. How would that happen? That is, getting that "perfect knowledge". Be specific please.

I'm wondering if you might be asking for something that isn't possible. Especially if we are somehow required and/or it is necessary that we live by faith.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

I think it presents the same problem as most explanations that try to accept both scripture and science.

For once I agree with McConkie.
"Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized."

So I don't try and harmonize them. I figure all truth will be made known eventually. If there is truth in the creation story we will know it. If there is truth in the scientific teachings of evolution etc we will know it.

The exceedingly arrogant and oft heard Mormon mantra: "we will all know eventually", is one of the most pernicious thought stoppers one can come up with. What a cop out.

As a case in point, let's try this universally applicable non-response out on a more contemporary and less esoteric issue facing humankind.

DrW: What do you believe about anthropogenic global warming and climate change?

Choice 1 Respondent: Not sure really.

DrW: Here are some facts to help you decide: Over the last 100 years or so carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere have increased from some 300 ppm to more than 400 ppm with this increase accelerating over the last two decades. Monotonic changes in atmospheric carbon tracks well with the increased use of fossil fuels by humans and is a major factor in the climate change associated with the warming of the worlds oceans and atmosphere.

Considering this information,what is your view on anthropogenic global warming?

Choice 1 Respondent: I believe that what you have stated may be true. However, the Bible says that God placed man on the Earth to have dominion over it, so I am not too concerned. I have faith that in the hereafter all will be revealed, and we know for sure.