Politics over Religion at MD&D

[_Stem]

This probably belongs in "spirit paradise" now.

However, The Donald is none of the things that you describe. Where you see a narcissistic playboy and worse, I see a flawed, coarse but genuine altruist. Being self-serving does not form a mutually exclusive or negating facet. He's complex, experienced and OLD. He acts like an immature boy. He has thin skin. Yet, paradoxically, he is tough as nails and doesn't really give a damn what people think. Habitually he will react instantly to any slight or insult and give back as good as he gets. He'll take on the world of insults and slander and throw it right back in their faces. He'll make threats, and make good on some few of them when he chooses to.

He's the opposite of a cult leader. He doesn't really give a damn about anybody beyond an ideal to be a great changer of the status quo, to be remembered as the ONE who could make changes, real and lasting. And it so happens that many of his ideas for change are all about making things better/great again. They resonate with Americans who want to be great, in a great Nation with the greatest lifestyle of individual freedom and affluence, etc. He wants to defend these ideals and changes, with the sword where necessary. Of course, many Americans are going to flock to this banner-raising "chief magistrate".

And of course, all such are going to continually be vilified for being followers and supporters of such a paragon of conflicting images. So far, the "ride" is as bumpy and fun(funny) as I said it would be over a year ago.

Interesting. It is kind of sad that so many are on board with blaming Trump and his followers as being the problem with where we are now. For every Trump supporter whose pissed about Hillary and elites in government or society, there is a would be Hillary supporter filling their lives with anger and hate towards Trump and his supporters. I can barely stomach Trump. I find him narcissistic enough to not care what others think and yet get petty enough to respond in childish ways to any criticism no matter how meaningless or thoughtless. I don't' think there's any particular discrepancy between calling him a narcissist and altruist though. I think he does want to benefit others, but likely to feed his ego as much as other reason's that motivate him.

But even I was a bit delighted to see so many news orgs go from happy and confident they knew Hillary would win to panicked wondering what was going on to mourning. It's like they thought they were the ones in control of everything. The lashing out hasn't been against Trump so much but against everyone else who hates them. We were ripe for this in more ways than one. We're here now and there's nothing but new adventure ahead of us. Whining about Trump isn't doing much more than feeding a troll now. He'll continue to get the last laugh as long as we act so petty as he, cause as you indicate he doesn't give a damn at all what other's think.

[_Gray Ghost]

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/02/in ... jones.html

Rev. Jones is widely known in the minority communities here and elsewhere as a man of the highest character, who has undertaken constructive remedies for social problems which have been amazing in their scope and effectiveness. He is also highly regarded amongst church, labor, and civic leaders of a wide range of political persuasions. Our own Board of Supervisors has presented Rev. Jones with a Certificate of Honor, unanimously passed by all members, praising the church for its many projects "which have been so beneficial to all the citizens of the Bay Area." On the same occasion, he was also presented with a unanimously passed resolution by a Republican State Senator, Milton Marks representing that legislative body.

[_DrW]

Symmachus,

A bit late to the thread. Just wanted to tell you that your response to Chap on 10 December regarding WD was, by far, the best thought out and well written description of the worldview and motivations of hard core Trump followers that I have seen anywhere. Together with Chap's comments, the two posts pretty much said it all.

I read the piece several times (and that was not the first instance of re-reading stuff you write.) You really nailed it, and I wanted you to know that your talent does not go unnoticed. There are folks out here who value and appreciate your kind of insight and expression.

[_Kishkumen]

This probably belongs in "spirit paradise" now.

However, The Donald is none of the things that you describe. Where you see a narcissistic playboy and worse, I see a flawed, coarse but genuine altruist. Being self-serving does not form a mutually exclusive or negating facet. He's complex, experienced and OLD. He acts like an immature boy. He has thin skin. Yet, paradoxically, he is tough as nails and doesn't really give a damn what people think. Habitually he will react instantly to any slight or insult and give back as good as he gets. He'll take on the world of insults and slander and throw it right back in their faces. He'll make threats, and make good on some few of them when he chooses to.

He's the opposite of a cult leader. He doesn't really give a damn about anybody beyond an ideal to be a great changer of the status quo, to be remembered as the ONE who could make changes, real and lasting. And it so happens that many of his ideas for change are all about making things better/great again. They resonate with Americans who want to be great, in a great Nation with the greatest lifestyle of individual freedom and affluence, etc. He wants to defend these ideals and changes, with the sword where necessary. Of course, many Americans are going to flock to this banner-raising "chief magistrate".

And of course, all such are going to continually be vilified for being followers and supporters of such a paragon of conflicting images. So far, the "ride" is as bumpy and fun(funny) as I said it would be over a year ago.

Um, no. You’ve drunk the koolaid. You believe the image he has concocted. But it is a contrived image. This is the guy who fed puff pieces about himself to tabloids. This is the guy who propagated racist conspiracy theories about Obama. This is the guy who started a fake university. The guy is as phony as a three dollar bill. The evidence is right under everyone’s noses. He has absolutely no business pretending to be chief executive of a modern state. He would be a failure as a strongman in a third world state. I am baffled by those who can’t see what is plain as day. People all over the political spectrum recognize this. It seems like 35% of the electorate is susceptible to the clown show.

[_Kishkumen]

Interesting. It is kind of sad that so many are on board with blaming Trump and his followers as being the problem with where we are now. For every Trump supporter whose pissed about Hillary and elites in government or society, there is a would be Hillary supporter filling their lives with anger and hate towards Trump and his supporters. I can barely stomach Trump. I find him narcissistic enough to not care what others think and yet get petty enough to respond in childish ways to any criticism no matter how meaningless or thoughtless. I don't' think there's any particular discrepancy between calling him a narcissist and altruist though. I think he does want to benefit others, but likely to feed his ego as much as other reason's that motivate him.

But even I was a bit delighted to see so many news orgs go from happy and confident they knew Hillary would win to panicked wondering what was going on to mourning. It's like they thought they were the ones in control of everything. The lashing out hasn't been against Trump so much but against everyone else who hates them. We were ripe for this in more ways than one. We're here now and there's nothing but new adventure ahead of us. Whining about Trump isn't doing much more than feeding a troll now. He'll continue to get the last laugh as long as we act so petty as he, cause as you indicate he doesn't give a damn at all what other's think.

Good grief. What a bunch of crap. Of course you can blame people for exercising poor judgment. They screwed up. They voted for a mentally unstable ignoramus. It’s not like this was some kind of well kept secret. Should I feel badly for those who, knowing full well what kind of garbage he said and did, pulled the lever for him anyways? Hell no!

This screw job has been going on for decades now. The GOP and Fox News have turned messing with people’s heads into a science. The clear object of all of this is to concentrate more money and power in the hands of oligarchs, who see democracy as an impediment. If people like Uncle Ed agree with them I say “F”’em! I have zero sympathy for white nationalists and oligarchs. I have only slightly more sympathy for the people who have bought into the sewage-grade propaganda and hatred peddled by Fox News and Breitbart.

It is clear you Trump voters have been had. Royally taken. And you deserve it. He is “working” (passively cooperating) to pass a tax bill that (he does not fully understand or care to understand) will screw over every Trump voter among the poor and lower middle class, while his family laughs all the way to the bank. You voted for a man with a long track record of screwing the little guy, and he screwed you, too.

I am sick of this mealy-mouthed, false-equivalency BS that says, “well, everyone is to blame.” That kind of talk is a recipe for serfdom. Use your freaking brain and learn who is attacking democracy, suppressing the vote, gerrymandering districts to hell, and giving the wealthiest Americans huge tax breaks against the advice of any responsible economist. Don’t bend over for the soap.

[_Stem]

Good grief. What a bunch of crap. Of course you can blame people for exercising poor judgment. They screwed up. They voted for a mentally unstable ignoramus. It’s not like this was some kind of well kept secret. Should I feel badly for those who, knowing full well what kind of garbage he said and did, pulled the lever for him anyways? Hell no!

I agree. I'm not saying otherwise.

This screw job has been going on for decades now. The GOP and Fox News have turned messing with people’s heads into a science. The clear object of all of this is to concentrate more money and power in the hands of oligarchs, who see democracy as an impediment. If people like Uncle Ed agree with them I say ____’em! I have zero sympathy for white nationalists and oligarchs. I have only slightly more sympathy for the people who have bought into the sewage-grade propaganda and hatred peddled by Fox News and Breitbart.

I'd largely agree here too.

It is clear you Trump voters have been had. Royally taken. And you deserve it. He is “working” (passively cooperating) to pass a tax bill that (he does not fully understand or care to understand) will screw over every Trump voter among the poor and lower middle class, while his family laughs all the way to the bank. You voted for a man with a long track record of screwing the little guy, and he screwed you, too.

I didn't vote for Trump. Not even a little consideration voting for him crossed my mind.

I am sick of this mealy-mouthed, false-equivalency BS

I think the term you're looking for is taffy puller, or perhaps patty cake.

that says, “well, everyone is to blame.” That kind of talk is a recipe for serfdom. Use your freaking brain and learn who is attacking democracy, suppressing the vote, gerrymandering districts to hell, and giving the wealthiest Americans huge tax breaks against the advice of any responsible economist. Don’t bend over for the soap.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this either, in large measure. I do think that there are some Trump supporters who support democracy but perhaps don't know how they aren't supporting it. But my point was more along the lines of we can't solely blame Trump and his supporters for the political climate we're in. Something had to get us to the point of fostering a world were Trump won the election. I suppose there's probably some patty-caking and taffy pulling in those who see the problems we face as per our political and growing more social climate came from somewhere. They didn't appear in a vacuum.

[_Symmachus]

To the extent that Stem is saying that Trump is a symptom and not the illness, I agree. We still have to address the symptom, though.

[_candygal]

I am going to get so much crap for this...but for whatever Trump expounds..and/or is guilty of...and I agree..there is some very, very questionable things...the bars should surround him should also be around the Clintons...oh my gosh...what a double standard we have created in the parties of politics. I cannot ..nor ever ever understand why this woman and her husband are yet free...you lock Trump in..the Clinton's go too I just cannot understand it.

[_Kishkumen]

I don't' think there's any particular discrepancy between calling him a narcissist and altruist though. I think he does want to benefit others, but likely to feed his ego as much as other reason's that motivate him.

I don't see how anyone with Trump's track record of using other people and throwing them away could be seen as anything even remotely approaching an altruist. He does not want to benefit others. He wants to benefit himself and his family. It is crystal clear in his approach to his office, and it was long crystal clear in the way he reneged on contracts, threatened people with lawyers, and defrauded others before he took office.

This is the kind of meaningless conciliatory rhetoric I am talking about. Just stop it.

I don't' think there's any particular discrepancy between calling him a narcissist and altruist though. I think he does wBut even I was a bit delighted to see so many news orgs go from happy and confident they knew Hillary would win to panicked wondering what was going on to mourning. It's like they thought they were the ones in control of everything.

What did you think that reasonably sensible people would imagine and hope for going into the election? Did you imagine that they would think so poorly of everyone in the country as to imagine Trump winning? What's to gloat about here? What you, evidently swayed somewhat by the anti-media frenzy from propagandists on the Right, think about the media's reaction is baffling to me. They don't think they are in control. They thought better of the American people than many of them obviously deserved.

Yeah, I am sorry I was so elitist as to think that people should not indulge conspiracy theories or be deceived by two-bit con artists, but I did. I guess I was and I was wrong. It was not because I thought I should rule the world. It was because I thought people would not put a reality tv star with no qualifications other than a fortune acquired through branding and thievery into the Oval Office.

And, no, I did not think you voted for Trump. I never said you did.

And, yes, I think there are some things worth getting worked up over. So thrilled that you think the possible end of our system is not such a big deal.

[_Stem]

I am going to get so much crap for this...but for whatever Trump expounds..and/or is guilty of...and I agree..there is some very, very questionable things...the bars should surround him should also be around the Clintons...oh my gosh...what a double standard we have created in the parties of politics. I cannot ..nor ever ever understand why this woman and her husband are yet free...you lock Trump in..the Clinton's go too I just cannot understand it.

I agree. I mean it's true 25 years ago we elected an accused rapist, which is pretty scary. Not acknowledging what we overlooked then is not part of our problem would be stupid.