Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

[_Kishkumen]

Geez kish, I just don’t get it. Some dude decides to record his made up court about a made up religion and post it online. He enlists a known anti-Mormon to help him out. No laws were broken. No one was harmed. Big deal. I get it’s not how you would've handled it, but seriously, why the vitriol?

Hey, if it’s all so trivial, why did Bill Reel give a crap in the first place? Made up martyrdom in a made up court for a made up religion. All you need to do is take it one step further to be consistent.

[_Kishkumen]

I believe the point Kish is making is not that Bill decided to record his DC. It's that the decision to record his DC runs contrary to the principled tone of Bill's ongoing criticism of the Church. That Bill's behaved in a manner that he would criticise the Church for behaving in, is the point underpinning Kish's posts on this thread (I believe, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm misreading). Further to that point, Bill's saying that he didn't record the DC, whilst his complicity with the record being blatantly obvious is the kind of mealy mouthed comment that Bill himself would pick apart on his podcast.

Thank you! Yes, I DO NOT CARE that the DC was recorded. If it had been recorded for the purpose of protecting Bill from misrepresentation, that is cool with me. If the Church says Bill was ex’ed for adultery, he can pull his recording out and show the Church is lying.

I fully support that.

I do care that he apparently recorded it with the intention of publishing it, regardless of any misrepresentation.

I also care that the DC was orchestrated as a demonstration involving a person whose explicit intention is to harm the LDS Church, as this does contradict Bill’s self-presentation as a principled person who wanted the Church to be better.

I think Bill is basically a good guy. In my view he got caught up in the evolving script of the Mormon dissenter as quasi-martyr. Other people who came before Bill blazed the trail, so he is not individually culpable here. But I think he should have stopped short of having Norton metaphorically photo bomb his DC. That was a bridge too far. It did nothing to help his cause, if his cause was what he said it was.

[_Sanctorian]

Let’s see, a church and it’s leaders deceive millions of people every year and do so with the intent of milking money out of those people. Some of those people can’t even afford to put food in the mouths of their children or a roof over their heads and yet the message is “the lord will provide if you are faithful to his commandments”. And what are those commandments exactly? Pray, pay, obey.

On the other hand, we have an internet podcaster who probably lied that he wouldn’t record his DC. At best, he wanted documentation to show his kids why he was excommunicated when their friends ask. At worst, he wanted to be a martyr to sell that narrative to his audience. He enlisted a known critic of the church to help him out.

Apples and oranges.

[_Shulem]

Except for the worthiness interviews and November policy, I'm invested in exactly nothing regarding the church. Screwing them or otherwise.

I get it. If the LDS church would simply act like a regular church and stop abusing children it would be simply a matter of dealing with their false truth claims and all the rest of the garbage they peddle. But they have been abusing children for a very long time. That's a serious offense. Mamma bear don't like that. The LDS church is going to pay for this horrible abuse and practice. Karma demands payment. It's coming and Sam Young and his lion are leading the charge. However or whatever it takes is how the universe is going to force the LDS church to kneel and admit their errors. Anything short of that is not acceptable. They have to confess their errors and start to make real amends. Otherwise, full fury is going to take place. Mamma bear is pissed.

[_Meadowchik]

Let’s see, a church and it’s leaders deceive millions of people every year and do so with the intent of milking money out of those people. Some of those people can’t even afford to put food in the mouths of their children or a roof over their heads and yet the message is “the lord will provide if you are faithful to his commandments”. And what are those commandments exactly? Pray, pay, obey.

On the other hand, we have an internet podcaster who probably lied that he wouldn’t record his DC. At best, he wanted documentation to show his kids why he was excommunicated when their friends ask. At worst, he wanted to be a martyr to sell that narrative to his audience. He enlisted a known critic of the church to help him out.

Apples and oranges.

Yup, a Goliath institution versus a few Davids.

[_Tator]

Yup, a Goliath institution versus a few Davids.

I was a David in a DC in 1989 against Goliath. No NDAs, no recordings, no podcasts, nobody but me. I listened until they were done and then I had my hour and it was a primitive CES moment compared to Reel's. What a farce. The QandAs lasted more than an hour.

It was a Saturday morning it was interesting that the SP greeted me at a locked door at 6:55am for the 7 am DC and inadvertently blurted out "What are you doing here? (pause) Oh yeah." They never expected me to show up. I did accomplish one thing I took enough time that I messed up a bunch of Tee times.

I don't think anyone can understand what a farce Goliath is until you been through one of these. Goliath gets what they deserve whether Norton or Bill or an NDA is involved or not, Goliath's tactics are the worst.

[_lostindc]

I was a David in a DC in 1989 against Goliath. No NDAs, no recordings, no podcasts, nobody but me. I listened until they were done and then I had my hour and it was a primitive CES moment compared to Reel's. What a farce. The QandAs lasted more than an hour.

It was a Saturday morning it was interesting that the stake president greeted me at a locked door at 6:55am for the 7 am DC and inadvertently blurted out "What are you doing here? (pause) Oh yeah." They never expected me to show up. I did accomplish one thing I took enough time that I messed up a bunch of Tee times.

I don't think anyone can understand what a farce Goliath is until you been through one of these. Goliath gets what they deserve whether Norton or Bill or an NDA is involved or not, Goliath's tactics are the worst.

That's kind of cool that you're an original gangster of the modern era of excommunications.

I wonder though...I realize the Church is a Goliath, a bully, and members and non-members are watching Goliath take on the Davids, but is it possible, that the Davids would be more successful if they approached the events with a bit more integrity? Do you believe it's possible, that due to the wacky behaviors (sometimes dishonest) of Norton, Reel, etc. that leaders and members are focusing on the messenger instead of the message? I am finding that members are dismissing the message in the case of Reel and focusing on the antics surrounding the affair. This wasn't nearly the case for Kate Kelly and similar personalities.

[_Kishkumen]

Let’s see, a church and it’s leaders deceive millions of people every year and do so with the intent of milking money out of those people. Some of those people can’t even afford to put food in the mouths of their children or a roof over their heads and yet the message is “the lord will provide if you are faithful to his commandments”. And what are those commandments exactly? Pray, pay, obey.

On the other hand, we have an internet podcaster who probably lied that he wouldn’t record his DC. At best, he wanted documentation to show his kids why he was excommunicated when their friends ask. At worst, he wanted to be a martyr to sell that narrative to his audience. He enlisted a known critic of the church to help him out.

Apples and oranges.

That is the standard justification all right. Of course, on its face it makes little sense, presupposing as it does a kind of deeply seated cynicism in LDS leaders. Because they are mercenary representatives of a heartless corporation, it is OK to do whatever one deems necessary to harm that organization. The calculation is all about power. Those who are perceived as having it must be bad. Those fighting it must be good. It is a simple and attractive narrative that falls apart under real scrutiny.

The truth is a lot more complicated. Goliath believes in his god and believes he is protecting a lot of little guys. It is not all about the money because Goliath isn’t really making much. Goliath really feels like he is doing good, and that David has been misled and is harming a lot of people. Goliath tries to reason with David, but David is having none of it. What is Goliath to do? Does he allow David to harm the people he vowed to protect? He can’t.

Both Goliath and David can be wrong in their own ways, and perhaps a little right too. Whatever the outcome, things will be messy.

[_I have a question]

I was a David in a DC in 1989 against Goliath. No NDAs, no recordings, no podcasts, nobody but me. I listened until they were done and then I had my hour and it was a primitive CES moment compared to Reel's. What a farce. The QandAs lasted more than an hour.

It was a Saturday morning it was interesting that the stake president greeted me at a locked door at 6:55am for the 7 am DC and inadvertently blurted out "What are you doing here? (pause) Oh yeah." They never expected me to show up. I did accomplish one thing I took enough time that I messed up a bunch of Tee times.

I don't think anyone can understand what a farce Goliath is until you been through one of these. Goliath gets what they deserve whether Norton or Bill or an NDA is involved or not, Goliath's tactics are the worst.

That's kind of cool that you're an original gangster of the modern era of excommunications.

I wonder though...I realize the Church is a Goliath, a bully, and members and non-members are watching Goliath take on the Davids, but is it possible, that the Davids would be more successful if they approached the events with a bit more integrity? Do you believe it's possible, that due to the wacky behaviors (sometimes dishonest) of Norton, Reel, etc. that leaders and members are focusing on the messenger instead of the message? I am finding that members are dismissing the message in the case of Reel and focusing on the antics surrounding the affair. This wasn't nearly the case for Kate Kelly and similar personalities.

The Church is only a Goliath if you actively choose to give it Goliath status in your life.

[_Sanctorian]

I don’t think the David and Goliath narrative fits this case. What i see happening is more and more people waking up to the fact we don’t have to play by the rules of those that claim power. Small battles are being won on the front lines everyday. Those orchestrating the wars are losing because the front line won’t just stand there and be shot. They run, dodge, hide, sneak up from behind and snipe the generals by any means possible. The generals can’t adapt fast enough and so they keep losing. List them out.

Kate Kelly - war for women
John Dehlin - war for gays
Jeremy Runnells - war for transparency
Sam Young - war for kids
Bill Reel - war for disaffection
Mike Norton - war for embarrassment

I don’t particularly like or agree with any of these individuals, but a subset of people do. They all have followers and the next ten “martyrs” will also have followers that will pull even more people away. It’s working. Standard rules of warfare no longer apply.