Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by Physics Guy »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Oct 25, 2025 1:03 pm
... it's unrealistic to expect anybody to deeply live every faith or even a random sample of faiths, therefore you can't consistently expect anybody to investigate Mormonism at the expense of investigating anything else.

This is why people with a little bit of wisdom either shrug off religion as all the same and wrong, or embrace relativism and say all religion is basically good, and no faith is better than another.
It's impossible to deeply live every alternative viewpoint on anything, or become experienced in every alternative method for dealing with anything. And yet, on most subjects, most people don't therefore decide that all viewpoints or methods are equally bad or good. Instead we form the best opinions we can, from whatever inconclusive evidence we may have.

The opinions we form from our insufficient evidence are usually not judgements of good versus bad, or true versus false. Usually the opinions we form from the insufficient evidence are just guesses about whether an option is worth investigating more thoroughly. And when we make these triage guesses about further investigation of a viewpoint or method, we don't only consider how likely the viewpoint is to be correct, or the method is to be effective. We also take into account how much effort the investigation will take, and how much difference the result is going to make for us.

If it seems as though an alternative is unlikely to be much better than our current default, and if thorough investigation will be difficult, then we usually decide not to bother. This isn't the same as being sure that our current default is the best, even though it may well lead to the same behaviour, of ignoring alternatives.

I think that kind of approach to deciding among alternative viewpoints and methods is not only common but wise. I think it's rational, in a game-theory sense, as a strategy for decision making when evidence is limited and expensive. And I don't see a priori why it is likely to lead to broad-brush agnosticism or relativism about religion, any more than it does about any other kinds of alternatives.

(It does presuppose a certain basic agnosticism, since it pretty much rules out from the start the possibility of achieving certain knowledge of the truth. I may well agree with Gadianton that this kind of agnosticism is both wise and widely applied by human beings in practice, whether they know it or not.)

This meta-approach could make it rational to stick with the Mormonism into which one was born. It would be a matter of deciding to stick with the devil one knows, because it's good enough that the effort of finding anything better is unlikely to make enough difference to be worthwhile. If you don't grow up Mormon, however, or if you did but do not really like it, then I think this progressive triage approach is likely to make you ditch Mormonism and never look back. You will not have to devote years to thoroughly living Mormonism before you reject it. It may be perfectly wise and legitimate to dismiss Mormonism completely at the first whiff of polygamy, or as soon as you find yourself counting the bogus archaisms in the Book of Mormon.

Arguing that you can't dismiss Mormonism without living it thoroughly first is absurd. Nobody can afford to make important decisions that way. Life's too short. The (meta-)alternative to "thoroughly live before deciding" does not just lead to non-committal relativism, either in religion or in anything else. You don't have to spend a whole month of breakfasts on every single cereal brand in order to determine your favourite. You also don't have to conclude that all cereals are equally bad, or equally good.

If those knock-off Corn Flakes were starchy and cardboard-y at the first spoonful, you don't ever have to have another bite. You can try different cereals and find some that you like. It may not be until your third or fourth box that you get around to reading the nutritional content information. If that spurs you to resume trying different cereals, that may also be wise.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

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It's impossible to deeply live every alternative viewpoint on anything, or become experienced in every alternative method for dealing with anything. And yet, on most subjects, most people don't therefore decide that all viewpoints or methods are equally bad or good. Instead we form the best opinions we can, from whatever inconclusive evidence we may have.
If it seems as though an alternative is unlikely to be much better than our current default, and if thorough investigation will be difficult, then we usually decide not to bother. This isn't the same as being sure that our current default is the best, even though it may well lead to the same behaviour, of ignoring alternatives.
Arguing that you can't dismiss Mormonism without living it thoroughly first is absurd. Nobody can afford to make important decisions that way. Life's too short. The (meta-)alternative to "thoroughly live before deciding" does not just lead to non-committal relativism, either in religion or in anything else. You don't have to spend a whole month of breakfasts on every single cereal brand in order to determine your favourite. You also don't have to conclude that all cereals are equally bad, or equally good.
I'm not sure if we're in a default argument now, but we're kind of flipping back and forth between what do we expect based on Mormon assumptions and what might we expect otherwise, and perhaps, what might we expect based on the assumptions of other faiths. I explained that in a follow up post -- my interest is evaluating the believability of Mormon methodology of "testing the seed" and is it really believable? Alma 32 gives us a test that sounds scientific, but is to be performed within a rigged lab that concludes what Alma wants you to conclude. Alma writes as if there's only one seed we'd ever need to test, his message on that given day. But you can read it in a way that sounds nearly Bayesian. Okay, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and just say we use Bayes rule. As you point out, Mormonism might be weeded out quickly. But, if life is a test where we're expected to get the right answer on the one true faith, it's unlikely a powerful enough rule to get every person who has been born the same unbiased chance at salvation -- at finding the one true faith. Perhaps it maximizes the number of people who would find the true faith, but that hardly makes for a fair test for each individual.

When I talk about investigating every religion for years and years and deeply live it, I'm only interested in consistency of method. As you point out, I could take Alma's advice and test the seed of Mormonism and say, "nah, time to move on." But if I do that, MG will snap into action, and insist that more time needs to be spent with the seed. That maybe the experiment wasn't performed quite right and needs to be repeated. There's really no end to the personal investment that a person should make in testing the Mormon seed per MG and every other Mormon who brings up Alma 32. It's a bait and switch, "oh hey, just try it?" But then you try it and shrug, and that wasn't good enough. But if this is our rule, then we need to apply it consistently. In a garden littered with seeds, I must apply Alma and his interpreters' method consistently and that's a problem when MG's seed is just one of many.

This whole line of thinking is erroneous in Calvinism. If a person is elect, God will lead them to the truth. The mechanics of that happening don't need to follow any rules discernable by humans. There is no "experimentation." Most religions of the world I think are closer to Calvinism in this regard then they are Mormonism. "We're elect, you're not, tough tough luck, buddy."

The irony here, Physics Guy, is that your dismissal of Mormonism by Bayesian means is somewhat of an affirmation of Mormonism at least in the respect that Mormonism may be the only religion that has a truth-finding doctrine that sounds Bayesian. (because it was invented in the 19th century)

Okay to wrap it up, once again, as a way to maximize your chances at finding the right religion or the right cereal, a Bayesian way of doing so based on quick and dirty assessments from a limited vantage point may be the best bet. However, if the doctrine demands God is fair and that we're all tasked with finding the truth, it isn't good enough.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by Limnor »

Fascinating discussion, especially how you’ve all framed Mormonism “experiment upon the word” as Bayesian-sounding epistemology as applied to faith and Alma 32.

I’d just add that Mormonism’s “experiment upon the word”was not that unique to the time-period. That method fits nicely into the 19th-century Protestant atmosphere of experiential testing: Methodist conversion language, revivalist “try it and see” preaching, and similar appeals to the heart - 19th-century empiricism dressed up in religion.

From that view, Alma 32 feels less original and more like another example of Mormonism’s penchant for borrowing and incorporating whatever ideas were in the air at the time.

What is unique is how thoroughly Mormonism codified that method into doctrine.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 9:00 am

This meta-approach could make it rational to stick with the Mormonism into which one was born. It would be a matter of deciding to stick with the devil one knows, because it's good enough that the effort of finding anything better is unlikely to make enough difference to be worthwhile.
I think there is some truth to that. It is interesting that many that come into the CofJCofLDS do so because they felt like something was "missing" from their previous faith, even if Christian.
Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 9:00 am
If you don't grow up Mormon, however, or if you did but do not really like it, then I think this progressive triage approach is likely to make you ditch Mormonism and never look back.
That may well be true also. Although, for some on this board it seems as though that is exactly what they are doing. They keep coming back. ;)
Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 9:00 am
You will not have to devote years to thoroughly living Mormonism before you reject it. It may be perfectly wise and legitimate to dismiss Mormonism completely at the first whiff of polygamy, or as soon as you find yourself counting the bogus archaisms in the Book of Mormon.
At first blush, that would make sense. Especially if the "whiff" leads one away from investigating more fully. Looking at the larger picture rather than bits and bytes.
Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 9:00 am
Arguing that you can't dismiss Mormonism without living it thoroughly first is absurd.
I know very few converts that have "lived the gospel fully" as they've come into the church. In fact, I don't know very many life long members who are living the gospel fully. Some more than others. What is true, however, is that when people come into the church and/or are BIC and are converted later in their life experience, and feel the spirit of the Gospel/Lord in their lives, it is less likely they will consider it all to be "absurd", as you put it.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 6:27 pm
It is interesting that many that come into the CofJCofLDS do so because they felt like something was "missing" from their previous faith, even if Christian.
That is interesting. Not least because if those very same people were jumping ship from your religion, you’d be calling them lazy, or “spiritually autistic”. Especially if they were saying that they left Mormonism because something was missing.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Limnor wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 2:09 pm
Fascinating discussion, especially how you’ve all framed Mormonism “experiment upon the word” as Bayesian-sounding epistemology as applied to faith and Alma 32.

I’d just add that Mormonism’s “experiment upon the word”was not that unique to the time-period. That method fits nicely into the 19th-century Protestant atmosphere of experiential testing: Methodist conversion language, revivalist “try it and see” preaching, and similar appeals to the heart - 19th-century empiricism dressed up in religion.

From that view, Alma 32 feels less original and more like another example of Mormonism’s penchant for borrowing and incorporating whatever ideas were in the air at the time.

What is unique is how thoroughly Mormonism codified that method into doctrine.
Yes, LDS church may be unique in that respect. Alma 32 doesn't just suggest trying faith, it lays out a step by step process...similar to an experiment. This pattern is used as missionaries go out and teach the word, experiment on the word, and then ask God to confirm or witness of the truth. Nowadays, the idea that spiritual truth in confirmed through personal revelation through a step by step process is central to the teachings of the church.

This may indeed be somewhat unique.

If I'm not mistaken, I think our Evangelical friends would discourage this unique/specific pattern. Maybe some of those folks that post here could straighten me out if I'm incorrect.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by Limnor »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 11:53 pm
LDS church may be unique in that respect. Alma 32 doesn't just suggest trying faith, it lays out a step by step process...similar to an experiment. This pattern is used as missionaries go out and teach the word, experiment on the word, and then ask God to confirm or witness of the truth.

-snip-

This may indeed be somewhat unique.

If I'm not mistaken, I think our Evangelical friends would discourage this unique/specific pattern. Maybe some of those folks that post here could straighten me out if I'm incorrect.

Regards,
MG
I don’t know if any evangelical board members will respond, but I can provide some historical examples that indicate the idea that Alma 32’s process is not unique to the Latter-day Saint tradition.

While Alma 32 gives that “experiment upon the word” idea a codified, “scriptural” foundation, the concept of experimental religion—testing faith through experience—was central to both Wesleyan Methodism and early Campbellite reform movements in the early 1800s.

John Wesley and his followers constantly used the term “experimental religion.” In A Plain Account of Christian Perfection (1766), he described salvation as something to be tried and known through personal experience:
“It is only by experience that we can know what faith is … Those who have it, know it is a divine evidence and conviction, such as you never had before.”
— John Wesley, A Plain Account of Christian Perfection
Similarly, in his sermon “Walking by Faith” (1788), Wesley linked faith directly with sensory testing:
“Faith is the spiritual sense of all who are born of God, whereby every soul that is born of God lives, sees, and feels the things of God.”
— Wesley, Sermon 141 – Walking by Faith
That language—taste, see, feel, prove—defined what Methodists called “experimental religion.” It invited believers to verify divine truth through inner witness and lived response, not mere assent.

The same spirit shows up in the early Campbellite (Reform) movement, where Alexander Campbell rejected mystical conversion but treated faith as something demonstrable and verifiable through obedience and result. Campbell said nearly the same about regeneration:
“A change of heart is the effect of faith, and faith is the effect of testimony; and testimony is addressed to the understanding.”
— Alexander Campbell, The Christian System (1839), p. 66
This “cause-and-effect” understanding of conversion was circulating among Campbell, Walter Scott, and Sidney Rigdon during the 1820s. Their reform meetings often promised that if seekers obeyed the ancient gospel—believe, repent, and be immersed—they would receive the witness of forgiveness. In short, it was an experiment of obedience leading to experience.

So while Alma 32 gives this process a “revelatory and scriptural proof,” that is: experiment upon the word, nourish it, and see if it grows, mirrors the same early-19th-century religious vocabulary of experimental Christianity that shaped both Wesleyan Methodism and the Campbellite Restoration.

It is exactly what I would expect from Rigdon - I’d expect Rigdon to engage in pseudepigraphy (as evidenced in the pseudepigraphic “3rd Epistle of Peter”) to achieve his theological aims, and I’d offer Cowdery, as Alma, understood the methodology as well, and then borrowed and applied it.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by MG 2.0 »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 11:53 pm
Limnor wrote:
Mon Oct 27, 2025 2:09 pm
Fascinating discussion, especially how you’ve all framed Mormonism “experiment upon the word” as Bayesian-sounding epistemology as applied to faith and Alma 32.

I’d just add that Mormonism’s “experiment upon the word”was not that unique to the time-period. That method fits nicely into the 19th-century Protestant atmosphere of experiential testing: Methodist conversion language, revivalist “try it and see” preaching, and similar appeals to the heart - 19th-century empiricism dressed up in religion.

From that view, Alma 32 feels less original and more like another example of Mormonism’s penchant for borrowing and incorporating whatever ideas were in the air at the time.

What is unique is how thoroughly Mormonism codified that method into doctrine.
Yes, LDS church may be unique in that respect. Alma 32 doesn't just suggest trying faith, it lays out a step by step process...similar to an experiment. This pattern is used as missionaries go out and teach the word, experiment on the word, and then ask God to confirm or witness of the truth. Nowadays, the idea that spiritual truth in confirmed through personal revelation through a step by step process is central to the teachings of the church.

This may indeed be somewhat unique.

If I'm not mistaken, I think our Evangelical friends would discourage this unique/specific pattern. Maybe some of those folks that post here could straighten me out if I'm incorrect.

Regards,
MG
The language in Alma 32 mirrors scientific inquiry more than revivalist preaching. It suggests empirical engagement...test the word, see if it enlarges your soul, and judge its goodness by its fruits. Was Alma the first to compare faith to a seed? If so, and as the whole chapter demonstrates, this was the perfect metaphor for what he was trying to teach.

Adam Miller has said that Alma 32 offers a theology that is less about propositional truth and more about transformative engagement with divine possibility.

Alma 32 doesn't just preach faith as did the preachers in Joseph's day, it models a theology of learning. I would question whether Alma 32 is a giant leap/step above the standard fare of the preachers of his day.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by Limnor »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:05 am
I would question whether Alma 32 is a giant leap/step above the standard fare of the preachers of his day.

Regards,
MG
Exactly. So would I.
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Re: Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Limnor wrote:
Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:08 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:05 am
I would question whether Alma 32 is a giant leap/step above the standard fare of the preachers of his day.

Regards,
MG
Exactly. So would I.
Ah! Now let's change it up and place the word 'not' between 'is' and 'a'. Are you still on board?

Regards,
MG
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