Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

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huckelberry
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by huckelberry »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:03 am
If an idea is true and important then I agree that it doesn’t matter how the idea is expressed.

This cuts both ways. If the same idea is expressed in multiple sources, we only need one of those sources to have the idea, and can ignore the other sources without losing the idea. A source can only be important because of the idea it expresses if it is the only source which expresses that idea.

What great idea is expressed in the Book of Mormon but in no other source?
I will state the obvious. If the Book of Mormon is real history it is proof that Jesus rose from the dead to some exalted status. I think people like the book for that.

I am not sure that there are new ideas in the Book of Mormon but their expression has been updated a bit by Protestant interpretation of the Bible. Physics Guy, I remember that you observed that you are put off by Paul's some what crabbed , sometimes obscure and incomplete expression of ideas. You certainly are not the only one who has felt that.
I Have Questions
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:29 pm
I thought it was standard apologetic that the Nephites had copy of Isaiah and included some of that in the plates so when Joseph arrived at those parts he just used the KJB to facilitate translation. Easy peasy no problem.

Perhaps more problematically suggestive is the material in the Book of Mormon which paraphrases or follows Biblical material which Nephites would not have had direct access to. Inspiration can be proposed to account for this.
Not unreasonable by any means. However, to suggest anything other than Joseph directly reading from the plates, or (now) reading specific words from off of a magic rock, is an apostate position as far as the Church is concerned. The moment someone accepts Joseph using a KJV Bible, they are in opposition with the Church. The moment someone accepts the fact that the Book of Mormon contains verbatim KJV Bible content, they have accepted the Church and Joseph haven’t told the truth about the books origins.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

Morley wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:07 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 5:56 pm


Don’t forget the plates!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158043

Regards,
MG
We only hear of the plates because: But three witnesses.


The Book of Mormon has the consensus of entire disciplines arrayed against it. The Book of Mormon doesn't stack up in history, anthropology, linguistics, biology, physics, archeology, or geology, There is no measure in which there is any evidence of it being what it's purported to be.

Oh, I forgot: But three witnesses.
The Book of Mormon contains verbatim content from a work produced 1,348 years after it was supposedly written and sealed up. You need look no further than that to declare the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be. Regardless of anything anyone else has claimed to see or not see.

The Book of Mormon disproves itself.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:07 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 5:56 pm


Don’t forget the plates!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158043

Regards,
MG
We only hear of the plates because: But three witnesses.


The Book of Mormon has the consensus of entire disciplines arrayed against it. The Book of Mormon doesn't stack up in history, anthropology, linguistics, biology, physics, archeology, or geology, There is no measure in which there is any evidence of it being what it's purported to be.

Oh, I forgot: But three witnesses.
The plates came first. The thread I linked you to spent a whole lot of time and effort on my part to defend that point. Successfully in my opinion. Not going back there.

If you want to start with witnesses as though the plates didn’t exist, fine. I can’t stop you.

I don’t have the time, energy and motivation to go through all that again.

Regards
MG
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:42 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:29 pm
I thought it was standard apologetic that the Nephites had copy of Isaiah and included some of that in the plates so when Joseph arrived at those parts he just used the KJB to facilitate translation. Easy peasy no problem.

Perhaps more problematically suggestive is the material in the Book of Mormon which paraphrases or follows Biblical material which Nephites would not have had direct access to. Inspiration can be proposed to account for this.
Not unreasonable by any means. However, to suggest anything other than Joseph directly reading from the plates, or (now) reading specific words from off of a magic rock, is an apostate position as far as the Church is concerned. The moment someone accepts Joseph using a KJV Bible, they are in opposition with the Church. The moment someone accepts the fact that the Book of Mormon contains verbatim KJV Bible content, they have accepted the Church and Joseph haven’t told the truth about the books origins.
I think that it is for people like you that Joseph went ‘full stop’ with the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God.

I really don’t think you have any interest in knowing whether Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. And if you do, I don’t think you’ve made the sacrifice and effort to know. Of course, only you know that for sure. Just my guess.

So there you go. ;)

Regards,
MG
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:20 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:42 pm
Not unreasonable by any means. However, to suggest anything other than Joseph directly reading from the plates, or (now) reading specific words from off of a magic rock, is an apostate position as far as the Church is concerned. The moment someone accepts Joseph using a KJV Bible, they are in opposition with the Church. The moment someone accepts the fact that the Book of Mormon contains verbatim KJV Bible content, they have accepted the Church and Joseph haven’t told the truth about the books origins.
I think that it is for people like you that Joseph went ‘full stop’ with the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God.
…and by copying bits of the KJV Bible verbatim and ripping off story lines from The Pilgrims Progress (amongst other materials).
Last edited by I Have Questions on Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Gadianton
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Gadianton »

MG wrote:The plates came first. The thread I linked you to spent a whole lot of time and effort (misunderstanding the point that Bushman and DCP were making)
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

Peterson tries to make my signature line all about him.
And, while I’m on the subject of the Book of Mormon witnesses: I came across an argument against them the other day, and against the Book of Mormon itself — and, really, against me — that I would like to share with you and on which I want to briefly comment:

1. Eyewitness testimony, says the critic (whom we’ll call Bucky), is notoriously unreliable. 2. But, says Bucky, the buffoonish Dan Peterson claims that the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony, therefore, according to Peterson, 3.the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a kind of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... or-it.html

Why does Peterson refer to me as “Bucky”? My screen name is “I Have Questions”. Referring to me properly would improve his word count.

Peterson continues with:
I get a kick out of this sort of argument against the credibility of the Book of Mormon witnesses, which seems to me transparently selective and self-serving. Imagine how most people would react to a trial in which eleven eyewitnesses testify that they plainly saw Frank repeatedly and fatally stab Charlie.

At trial, Frank’s defense attorney stands and, scarcely able to conceal his haughty contempt for the prosecution’s case, declares to the jury that

“1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. According to the State, though, the best evidence for Frank’s guilt is — brace yourselves and try not to laugh! — eyewitness testimony. Therefore, by the prosecution’s own admission, 3. the best and most convincing evidence that Frank murdered Charlie’s is a kind of ‘evidence’ that is notoriously unreliable.”
Or, alternatively, imagine Bucky himself filing a complaint with the police. Arnold, says Bucky, systematically demolished Bucky’s car with a sledgehammer.

“How do you know that it was Arnold who did it”? asks the police officer.

“Because I saw him do it,” responds Bucky. “With my own eyes.”

“But,” the police officer returns, “do you have any corroborating evidence?”

“Yes! I certainly do!” replies Bucky. “Eleven of my neighbors stood on their lawns and on the sidewalk and watched him do it!”

“Is that really all you’ve got?” says the officer, with obvious irritation. “Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. And yet, according to you yourself the best evidence that Arnold was the one who smashed your car with a sledgehammer is, of all things, eyewitness testimony! Accordingly, from your very own mouth, the strongest evidence that Arnold destroyed your car is no more than a kind of ‘evidence’ that is famously unreliable. Stop wasting my time. You’re lucky I don’t arrest you for filing a false report. Come back when (and if) you ever have anything that I can take seriously!”
Peterson clearly hasn’t studied this thread properly. Because I’ve already cited a case such as Pererson’s stabbing example in which it was shown that all the eye witnesses that fingered the perpetrator were in fact, ALL mistaken for various reasons.

I will post it again for our lazy learner Bro Peterson…
In 2010, Aaron Scheerhoorn was stabbed to death outside of a Houston nightclub. The attack was merciless, with Scheerhoorn crying out "Help me! He's killing me!" as he was stabbed numerous times. A crowd witnessed the attack, and upon questioning by detectives, six different eyewitnesses identified Lydell Grant as the murderer.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... you-really
At trial, the six eyewitnesses testified that they had seen Grant murder Scheerhoorn. For violent crimes, any eyewitness is a luxury for the prosecution; six fingering the same defendant is extraordinarily rare. Despite having an alibi, and despite the prosecution having no physical evidence tying him to the crime (which was unusual given the bloody nature of the attack), Grant was quickly found guilty and ultimately sentenced to life in prison. As any lawyer knows, few things sway a jury like eyewitness testimony.

Since the day he was arrested, Grant steadfastly maintained his innocence. From his maximum-security prison in Gatesville, Texas, he sent dozens of letters to defense attorneys in an attempt to have his case reevaluated, but most went unanswered. Years passed; soon Grant found himself imprisoned for nearly a decade.

Everything changed in 2019 when a new DNA testing method analyzed samples from underneath Scheerhoorn's fingernails, clearing Grant and instead implicating another man, Jermarico Carter, who later confessed to the murder. A writ of habeas corpus was filed bringing to light the new DNA evidence, and Grant was quickly released from prison.
returning to the topic of Lydell Grant, reports suggest that all of the eyewitnesses to Scheerhoorn's murder were manipulated in some way either before or after their identification of Grant. Three reported that the detective told them that they had picked the same person that other people had. Two other eyewitnesses discussed their selection with each another and confirmed each other’s memory. The last eyewitness claimed that the detective stated “good job” following their identification of Grant. This type of manipulation can lead not only to incorrect identifications, but also more confidence in eyewitnesses that their memory is correct.
Thank you Brother Peterson for using an example that absolutely supports my board signature and reaffirms that Eye Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable :lol:
Last edited by I Have Questions on Sun Oct 13, 2024 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:29 pm
MG wrote:The plates came first. The thread I linked you to spent a whole lot of time and effort (misunderstanding the point that Bushman and DCP were making)
I speak for myself and I spoke for myself. Whether or not I ‘stick to the point’ is of no real consequence except as a ‘point’ for someone else to ‘point’ out in order to try and score ‘points’.

‘Try’ being the operative word. Didn’t work. Won’t work.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:55 pm
Peterson tries to make my signature line all about him.
And, while I’m on the subject of the Book of Mormon witnesses: I came across an argument against them the other day, and against the Book of Mormon itself — and, really, against me — that I would like to share with you and on which I want to briefly comment:

1. Eyewitness testimony, says the critic (whom we’ll call Bucky), is notoriously unreliable. 2. But, says Bucky, the buffoonish Dan Peterson claims that the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony, therefore, according to Peterson, 3.the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a kind of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... or-it.html

Why does Peterson refer to me as “Bucky”? My screen name is “I Have Questions”. Referring to me properly would improve his word count.

Peterson continues with:
I get a kick out of this sort of argument against the credibility of the Book of Mormon witnesses, which seems to me transparently selective and self-serving. Imagine how most people would react to a trial in which eleven eyewitnesses testify that they plainly saw Frank repeatedly and fatally stab Charlie.

At trial, Frank’s defense attorney stands and, scarcely able to conceal his haughty contempt for the prosecution’s case, declares to the jury that

“1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. According to the State, though, the best evidence for Frank’s guilt is — brace yourselves and try not to laugh! — eyewitness testimony. Therefore, by the prosecution’s own admission, 3. the best and most convincing evidence that Frank murdered Charlie’s is a kind of ‘evidence’ that is notoriously unreliable.”
Or, alternatively, imagine Bucky himself filing a complaint with the police. Arnold, says Bucky, systematically demolished Bucky’s car with a sledgehammer.

“How do you know that it was Arnold who did it”? asks the police officer.

“Because I saw him do it,” responds Bucky. “With my own eyes.”

“But,” the police officer returns, “do you have any corroborating evidence?”

“Yes! I certainly do!” replies Bucky. “Eleven of my neighbors stood on their lawns and on the sidewalk and watched him do it!”

“Is that really all you’ve got?” says the officer, with obvious irritation. “Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. And yet, according to you yourself the best evidence that Arnold was the one who smashed your car with a sledgehammer is, of all things, eyewitness testimony! Accordingly, from your very own mouth, the strongest evidence that Arnold destroyed your car is no more than a kind of ‘evidence’ that is famously unreliable. Stop wasting my time. You’re lucky I don’t arrest you for filing a false report. Come back when (and if) you ever have anything that I can take seriously!”
Peterson clearly hasn’t studied this thread properly. Because I’ve already cited a case such as Pererson’s stabbing example in which it was shown that all the eye witnesses that fingered the perpetrator were in fact, ALL mistaken for various reasons.

I will post it again for our lazy learner Bro Peterson…
In 2010, Aaron Scheerhoorn was stabbed to death outside of a Houston nightclub. The attack was merciless, with Scheerhoorn crying out "Help me! He's killing me!" as he was stabbed numerous times. A crowd witnessed the attack, and upon questioning by detectives, six different eyewitnesses identified Lydell Grant as the murderer.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... you-really
At trial, the six eyewitnesses testified that they had seen Grant murder Scheerhoorn. For violent crimes, any eyewitness is a luxury for the prosecution; six fingering the same defendant is extraordinarily rare. Despite having an alibi, and despite the prosecution having no physical evidence tying him to the crime (which was unusual given the bloody nature of the attack), Grant was quickly found guilty and ultimately sentenced to life in prison. As any lawyer knows, few things sway a jury like eyewitness testimony.

Since the day he was arrested, Grant steadfastly maintained his innocence. From his maximum-security prison in Gatesville, Texas, he sent dozens of letters to defense attorneys in an attempt to have his case reevaluated, but most went unanswered. Years passed; soon Grant found himself imprisoned for nearly a decade.

Everything changed in 2019 when a new DNA testing method analyzed samples from underneath Scheerhoorn's fingernails, clearing Grant and instead implicating another man, Jermarico Carter, who later confessed to the murder. A writ of habeas corpus was filed bringing to light the new DNA evidence, and Grant was quickly released from prison.
returning to the topic of Lydell Grant, reports suggest that all of the eyewitnesses to Scheerhoorn's murder were manipulated in some way either before or after their identification of Grant. Three reported that the detective told them that they had picked the same person that other people had. Two other eyewitnesses discussed their selection with each another and confirmed each other’s memory. The last eyewitness claimed that the detective stated “good job” following their identification of Grant. This type of manipulation can lead not only to incorrect identifications, but also more confidence in eyewitnesses that their memory is correct.
Thank you Brother Peterson for using an example that absolutely supports my board signature and reaffirms that Eye Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable :lol:
Can be, but not always.

How ya’ gonna know Bucky? Throw all the rotten bums out? Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Regards,
MG
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