Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:50 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:35 pm
Thanks for your response. Doesn’t really go anywhere. I think you gave a bad source for your pet theory.

Regards,
MG
If you want to similarly label Brigham Young's transfiguration a pet theory based on bad sources, that's certainly your prerogative.

Incidentally, would you say there's more evidence for the existence of tiles, or more evidence for the existence of a resurrected pre-Colombian American Israelite who created a new written language to compile a record on golden plates to later give to a farmer with a documented history of capitalizing on the superstitious beliefs of others, and then take those same plates away because [insert reason]? Y'know, while we're analyzing evidentiary standards.

Personally, I've seen more tiles in my life. Your mileage may vary.
Are you conceding that your evidence given for ‘the brick’ is somewhat on the flimsy side?

Regards,
MG
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 2170
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:30 pm
Are you conceding that your evidence given for ‘the brick’ is somewhat on the flimsy side?

Regards,
MG
A source, written by someone with familiarity of the area, its history, and the individuals associated with key aspects of a notable resident's story, who conducted interviews and utilized those interviews to compile a historical volume about key areas during a specific time frame? A source, who's account is also based in what we know to be plausible reality (i.e. that brick tiles exist)?

As far as historical documents go, that's not too shabby. Particularly when weighted against the superstitious magical alternative.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:49 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:30 pm
Are you conceding that your evidence given for ‘the brick’ is somewhat on the flimsy side?

Regards,
MG
A source, written by someone with familiarity of the area, its history, and the individuals associated with key aspects of a notable resident's story, who conducted interviews and utilized those interviews to compile a historical volume about key areas during a specific time frame? A source, who's account is also based in what we know to be plausible reality (i.e. that brick tiles exist)?

As far as historical documents go, that's not too shabby. Particularly when weighted against the superstitious magical alternative.
If you’re comfortable going with that, fine.

I think “superstitious magical” has gotten a bad rap. And for good reason in many cases. Makes it difficult to pick out winners and losers as far as religious belief systems go. Not the people within the system. The system itself.

As far as your dependence on these two characters/individuals (that may or may have not even existed?) to determine that the plates didn’t exist…I find that as resting on shaky ground.

As they say, your mileage may vary.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
God
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Marcus »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:49 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:30 pm
Are you conceding that your evidence given for ‘the brick’ is somewhat on the flimsy side?

Regards,
MG
A source, written by someone with familiarity of the area, its history, and the individuals associated with key aspects of a notable resident's story, who conducted interviews and utilized those interviews to compile a historical volume about key areas during a specific time frame? A source, who's account is also based in what we know to be plausible reality (i.e. that brick tiles exist)?

As far as historical documents go, that's not too shabby. Particularly when weighted against the superstitious magical alternative.
The upside here is that if mentalgymnast would be consistent, he would concede that the stories about plates are no more based in evidence and fact than the story of the brick.

(Just kidding. We all know mentalgymnast has double standards when it comes to believing things.)
Marcus
God
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:02 pm
...As far as your dependence on these two characters/individuals (that may or may have not even existed?) to determine that the plates didn’t exist…I find that as resting on shaky ground...
But you're comfortable with "superstitious magical"?

And I don't want to speak for Dr. Steuss, but I'm pretty sure he isn't simply "depending on this account" to come to his conclusions about the Book of Mormon fable. It's another piece in the mix, and it is consistent with Smith's fraudulent story.
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 2170
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:02 pm
[...] As far as your dependence on these two characters/individuals (that may or may have not even existed?) [...]
Hussey is buried in the Palmyra Cemetery. Based on when he passed (a few years after the Book of Mormon's publication), the account documented by McIntosh was either from a journal, affidavit, or from someone who had been told the story.

I can’t find where Vanduzer (whose name I misspelled before) was buried. I did find a transcription of the meeting minutes from a "special town meeting" of residents in Palmyra from January 20, 1818. Vanduzer was voted to serve as a Constable. It appears that Joseph Smith's grandfather may have been there too (small world moment), but it could have been another "Asa" Smith.

There's no reason to believe that they both didn't exist, and both weren't residents of Palmyra with Joseph Smith.
Marcus
God
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Marcus »

A little more about this story, with a hat tip to Vogel, whose quote of Mormon historian Anderson about the original author of the story is included:
Courage to View the Gold Plates
Posted on July 28, 2011 by Sharon Lindbloom

Pomeroy Tucker was a contemporary of Joseph Smith. Living in Palmyra, New York, he knew the Smith family, counted Martin Harris among his friends, and was actively engaged in the 1830 printing process of the Book of Mormon.

In 1867 Pomeroy Tucker published a book about Mormonism titled, “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism: Biography of its founders and history of its church.” The book is highly critical of Joseph Smith and the religion he founded, and is itself criticized for Mr. Tucker’s lack of careful and new research. However, according to Mormon historian Richard L. Anderson, “Tucker does relate much valuable information concerning the period of the publication of the Book of Mormon…Most of Tucker’s unattributed particulars of the Smiths’ early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation” (quoted in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:87).

Pomeroy Tucker’s book relates an unusual story concerning the gold plates that purportedly contained the text for the Book of Mormon. What follows is from “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism,” pages 30-33.

“[Joseph] Smith told a frightful story of the display of celestial pyrotechnics on the exposure to his view of the sacred book—the angel who had led him to the discovery again appearing as his guide and protector, and confronting ten thousand devils gathered there, with their menacing sulphureous flame and smoke, to deter him from his purpose! This story was repeated and magnified by the believers, and no doubt aided the experiment upon superstitious minds which eventuated so successfully.

“Mr. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was called upon by Smith and requested to make a strong chest in which to keep the golden book under lock and key, in order to prevent the awful calamity that would follow against the person other than himself who should behold it with his natural eyes. He could not pay a shilling for the work, and therefore proposed to make Mr. Chase a sharer in the profits ultimately anticipated in some manner not definitely stated; but the proposition was rejected—the work was refused on the terms offered. It was understood, however, that the custodian of the precious treasure afterward in some way procured a chest for his purpose, which, with its sacred deposit, was kept in a dark garret of his father’s house, where the translations were subsequently made, as will be explained.

“An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags [jokers], and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the ‘golden book,’ offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, ‘Egad! I’ll see the critter, live or die!’ And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith’s fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and ‘treating’ with the customary whiskey hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature.”

https://blog.mrm.org/2011/07/courage-to ... ld-plates/
[Interesting opinion about Pomeroy by Mormon historian Anderson is bolded by me.]
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5471
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:36 pm
A little more about this story, with a hat tip to Vogel, whose quote of Mormon historian Anderson about the original author of the story is included:
Courage to View the Gold Plates
Posted on July 28, 2011 by Sharon Lindbloom

Pomeroy Tucker was a contemporary of Joseph Smith. Living in Palmyra, New York, he knew the Smith family, counted Martin Harris among his friends, and was actively engaged in the 1830 printing process of the Book of Mormon.

In 1867 Pomeroy Tucker published a book about Mormonism titled, “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism: Biography of its founders and history of its church.” The book is highly critical of Joseph Smith and the religion he founded, and is itself criticized for Mr. Tucker’s lack of careful and new research. However, according to Mormon historian Richard L. Anderson, “Tucker does relate much valuable information concerning the period of the publication of the Book of Mormon…Most of Tucker’s unattributed particulars of the Smiths’ early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation” (quoted in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:87).

Pomeroy Tucker’s book relates an unusual story concerning the gold plates that purportedly contained the text for the Book of Mormon. What follows is from “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism,” pages 30-33.

“[Joseph] Smith told a frightful story of the display of celestial pyrotechnics on the exposure to his view of the sacred book—the angel who had led him to the discovery again appearing as his guide and protector, and confronting ten thousand devils gathered there, with their menacing sulphureous flame and smoke, to deter him from his purpose! This story was repeated and magnified by the believers, and no doubt aided the experiment upon superstitious minds which eventuated so successfully.

“Mr. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was called upon by Smith and requested to make a strong chest in which to keep the golden book under lock and key, in order to prevent the awful calamity that would follow against the person other than himself who should behold it with his natural eyes. He could not pay a shilling for the work, and therefore proposed to make Mr. Chase a sharer in the profits ultimately anticipated in some manner not definitely stated; but the proposition was rejected—the work was refused on the terms offered. It was understood, however, that the custodian of the precious treasure afterward in some way procured a chest for his purpose, which, with its sacred deposit, was kept in a dark garret of his father’s house, where the translations were subsequently made, as will be explained.

“An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags [jokers], and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the ‘golden book,’ offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, ‘Egad! I’ll see the critter, live or die!’ And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith’s fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and ‘treating’ with the customary whiskey hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature.”

https://blog.mrm.org/2011/07/courage-to ... ld-plates/
[Interesting opinion about Pomeroy by Mormon historian Anderson is bolded by me.]
Those danged ellipses. I wonder what the full context is/was in what Anderson said.

My guess is that he probably had good reason to distrust much of what Pomeroy said. At least to the point that he wasn’t able to take what he said ‘hook, line, and sinker’.

Regards,
MG
I Have Questions
God
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue May 23, 2023 9:09 am

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2024 4:32 am
Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:36 pm
A little more about this story, with a hat tip to Vogel, whose quote of Mormon historian Anderson about the original author of the story is included:

[Interesting opinion about Pomeroy by Mormon historian Anderson is bolded by me.]
Those danged ellipses. I wonder what the full context is/was in what Anderson said.

My guess is that he probably had good reason to distrust much of what Pomeroy said. At least to the point that he wasn’t able to take what he said ‘hook, line, and sinker’.

Regards,
MG
Most of Tucker’s unattributed particulars of the Smiths’ early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation” (quoted in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:87).
It’s the testimony of an independent eye witness. And your response is to “guess” something that isn’t there? You’re making things up because you don’t like the evidence. That’s the hallmark of a very closed mind.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
Marcus
God
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2024 4:32 am
Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:36 pm
A little more about this story, with a hat tip to Vogel, whose quote of Mormon historian Anderson about the original author of the story is included:

[Interesting opinion about Pomeroy by Mormon historian Anderson is bolded by me.]
Those danged ellipses. I wonder what the full context is/was in what Anderson said.

My guess is that he probably had good reason to distrust much of what Pomeroy said. At least to the point that he wasn’t able to take what he said ‘hook, line, and sinker’.

Regards,
MG
And your 'guess', which I highlighted, would be wrong. You may not have personal experience with this type of intellectually honest technique, but intellectually honest people use ellipses to shorten material to more briefly emphasize the author's point, NOT to change the meaning. You assumed dishonesty, but that's because your usual approach is coloring your (mis)understanding of honest research.
Tucker does relate much valuable information concerning the period of the publication of the Book of Mormon. He also claims knowledge of the Smiths “since their removal to Palmyra from Vermont in 1816, and during their continuance there and in the adjoining town of Manchester.” There is no reason to question this firsthand contact provided one is on guard not to take his western New York prejudice for fact. It is to his credit that he could at least distinguish between the two. He repeats tattered stories about Joseph Smith’s dishonesty only to admit in “common fairness” that such allegations were “not within the remembrance of the writer.” Although Tucker is content to repeat the armchair observations about the laziness of the Smiths, every one of his specific descriptions proves the opposite. Most of Tucker’s unattributed particulars of the Smith’s early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation.

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq
The blue is the content removed by the ellipses. You'll notice the statement, "There is no reason to question this firsthand contact" highlighted within the blue.

Next time, do your own research before you guess with your prejudices.
Post Reply