The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_Lemmie]

That Richard Packham intentionally bypassed the formulaic, "Ask and ye shall receive", and relied on himself...rather than God...for the answer to his questions tells us that the answers to his questions were from his mind and brain...and nowhere else.

Or it tells us that the answers people SAY came from God also came from their mind and brain....and nowhere else.

[_zerinus]

So when the Book of Mormon was published in 1830 and 1 Nephi 11:21 read, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!" were they the words that Nephi wrote down in context and content, just in another language than english?

Yes.

Also, based on your scriptural knowledge how much of the American continents were occupied by the Nephites and Lamanites, descendants of Lehi?

Hard to tell. Initially obviously it would have been a very small area. It was just Lehi and his family. Even after several generations it would have remained a very small area. But towards the end of their history the coverage seems to have been quite large, and there were also large scale migrations to the distant parts of the land.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So when the Book of Mormon was published in 1830 and 1 Nephi 11:21 read, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!" were they the words that Nephi wrote down in context and content, just in another language than english?

Yes.

Also, based on your scriptural knowledge how much of the American continents were occupied by the Nephites and Lamanites, descendants of Lehi?

Hard to tell. Initially obviously it would have been a very small area. It was just Lehi and his family. Even after several generations it would have remained a very small area. But towards the end of their history the coverage seems to have been quite large, and there were also large scale migrations to the distant parts of the land.

No love for the Jaredites.

Eta: Or Mulekites.

- Doc

[Guest]

MG -

You seem intent on including secret knowledge in this discussion. So I'll share my experience in leaving the church though I believe I've done so before.

My disaffection stemmed from my experience having been activated as a member of the Army Reserve while in college for the 2003 Iraq war. Following what was a disruptive event that over time seemed clearly to have been the product of authoritative abuse, I found the entire enterprise revealing how prone we are, myself included, to avoid asking questions of things that seem wrong or are asserted with greater authority than is warranted. In 2004 it was a non-church related personal commitment to pay closer attention to when my instincts suggested something wasn't completely on the up-and-up. Prior to my activation I had been serving as the 1st counselor in our student ward bishopric, I was the LDS group leader in my military unit, had served in leadership positions most of my short adult life, temple married to my wife a couple of years after having served a mission in which I was, as the handbook used to say, "blessed to be part of <insert names of a dozen individuals and a family> acceptance of the gospel when they entered the waters of baptism" in a mission where wasn't uncommon for elders and sisters to return home bearing testimony of how they had the opportunity to be part of one conversion - their own. Etc., etc., etc. It doesn't matter, obviously, but I don't know how else to convey to you that at the time I was as TBM as they come. I was sure, SURE, of my testimony of the Book of Mormon, that it testified of Christ, and I thought of myself as a temple-oriented, service oriented member who appreciated President Hunter's short term as prophet for the focus it brought on Christ-centered living. I would have had a ready answer to the question, favorite conference talk? withthis one.

So, 2004, teaching the family history class in a new ward I end up coming across something on the internet while looking something up regarding the Book of Abraham papyri. You'd call it the spirit probably, but my instinct was to not read it as it clearly was not favorable to the Church. I stopped myself and thought, I know the Church is true so why be afraid of the information? So I read it. It surprised me, as you can imagine, that it seemed pretty darned difficult to explain away how the translation of the same text by Joseph Smith and Egyptologists could be so completely different. Until then, I had never occurred to me to wonder if anyone had ever translated the hieroglyphs in the Book of Abraham facsimiles. That seems like something to look up. And, yeah, didn't help.

There was a lot of prayer involved. A lot. But I wasn't getting answers nor clear messages from God to steer clear. Actually, being honest felt right. It seemed to both intellectually align with what I believed God wanted us to do and it aligned with my inner sense that my moral compass was pointing the right direction. I read books like Brodie's that led me to Nibley which led me to Compton which became a real sticking point. It was around that time I found myself going to the message boards as an offshoot to trying to learn more about what answers there were from the Church. To borrow a concept from Joseph Smith's '42 version of the first vision, it did not occur to me yet that the Church might not only lack answer but could be misrepresenting the truth. That changed when I ended up reading the FARMS review of Compton's book. It was clearly lying and clearly trying to manipulate me as a reader. I was shocked. I thought there had to be better explanations so I ended up spending more time on the boards. That's when I first encountered Dr. Peterson. He offered to email me and discuss my concerns which I sincerely appreciated. As we discussed my concerns about answers and why things like the first vision were presented as they were when there was clearly much more that I, as an active and faithful member were never told about. Worse, why were they presented in what seemed like a deceptive manner? The answer came in the form of basically an invitation into the club of Type C members who have graduated from white hat/black hat history.

I was appalled. It was exactly the thing I was concerned with before with deception and politics obscuring the fact people were being manipulated and hurt by those who felt they didn't need to know things that, were they known, might lead them to make different choices. We ended our correspondence in complete disagreement about how LDS history should be presented to the membership.

This was over the course of a few months, all while I was still going to Church and increasingly struggling with what seemed like a dichotomy between the clear moral problems with the Church (how it was treating the membership and it's history) and it's founding leadership's character on the one hand and what I felt was my testimony of Christ and the role the Church had played in my gaining it. That included the Book of Mormon. I prayed, tried to consider that maybe I should just live as I thought was right and be, well, I don't know what. Not rock the boat, more or less. But it ate at me. It would physically hurt sometimes knowing that I was not acting with integrity.

So, my answer came some time later while I was straddling the line for a couple of years. And it came following prayer. Our mission was fortunate to have a genuinely good person for a mission president, and among the many things he did was provide all the missionaries with cassettes of talks and other devotional material that he found valuable. Some LDS, some not. One of those items was a recording of President Benson's pride talk from 1988, read by his councilor President Hinckley in conference. As I thought about why it was I was struggling, it hit me that it wasn't because of what I thought about God or Christ. It was because of what I thought about other people's opinions. And the words went thought my mind as clear as if I had the tape playing, "The proud stand in fear of men’s judgment more than of God’s judgment. What will men think of me?, weighs heavier than, What will God think of me?"

How could I claim to be following God, trying to live after the example of Christ when I wasn't following what my heart and instincts about what was right were telling was wrong? I didn't feel like what God thought of me was all that great, actually, because I was hiding.

It came off of me like a burden lifted. That was the right thing to do. Not pretend, not accept that the Church had authority to tell me something was right when it seemed wrong. If God wanted me in the Church and used the Book of Mormon to help me that didn't mean that God wanted me to just blindly follow what anyone claiming to be speaking for him told me.

I had a conversation with my bishop about having questions, and not wanting to live a lie. He asked what I wanted to do. I told him I didn't know exactly because I enjoyed the service opportunities and the Christ-centered messages at Church, I didn't agree with the way history was taught and the issues around Joseph Smith's polygamy. He offered to let me decide when or if I wanted to be released from my calling which at the time was teaching 15 year olds. I told him I trusted his judgement on that, and he could let me know what he wanted.

Things continued to evolve for me. The bishop didn't take too long to asked me if I would prefer teaching in priesthood (I think I made his wife uncomfortable as her kid was in the class, honestly) and also serve as his financial secretary which I accepted. But more and more, Church itself felt less spiritually filling and more spiritually draining. With this change I was now attending adult Sunday School and as we were studying the Old Testament, I decided it would be valuable to read more closely into the actual Hebrew Bible and not just the KJV/LDS manuals. I picked up a copy of the Hebrew Study Bible and found myself completely shocked to learn even more new things. It amazed me how open the book was about the Documentary Hypothesis, something I had never heard of. It discussed the mythologies of the Pentateuch and the issues around multiple Isaiah authors. All from a Jewish perspective without trying to hide from the issues.

Frankly, it was my first experience feeling like I was being talked to like an adult about religious subjects and scripture.

I started bring it to classes and would consider the points discussed between the LDS manual and the HSB. One day a sister asked a question regarding something in Exodus and the room was silent. It happened to be something that the HSB had a great answer for that was easily acceptable to a Mormon believer so I decided to share it. The teacher went, hmmm. The sister nodded and it seemed like it went well enough. But after the class, there were a few people who said something to me along the lines of, "That was interesting, but I'm not sure why you need to read something other than the scriptures or the manual." So it was clear it wasn't completely cool to have shared it.

The strain eventually came to a head over two things. One was a lesson I taught in Elder's quorum where I used the Kirtland anti-bank collapse for an example of what happens when people put their faith in people rather than in Christ. I had many guys come ups and say how awesome the lesson was, how much they had wanted to be able to talk about that and not feel like it was taboo. I knew I was pushing it when I chose to do it, but yeah. I was what I felt was right. The bishop told me he heard about my lesson. He didn't release me right away but I knew it was coming by how he reacted when he told me he'd heard about it. The second was that I had also been exploring deeper into the New Testament and it's origins which lead to reading on various forms of textual criticism. Combined it became clear that whatever path I was on, the LDS faith was no longer going to be part of it. I stopped attending. My daughter was not yet 8 years old and the idea of baptizing her into the same trap that Mormonism felt like to me made me sick as well.

It was probably a three year journey from TBM to someone who doesn't feel comfortable saying I'm an atheist but mainly because there are too many atheists who are not what I am which is not a believer in the Judeo-Christian teachings about God, nor any other religious teachings. But I'm not into the religion of secular science as god that seems just as...well, religious. I've seen the signs from inside and outside to be able to be that comfortable with certitude.

Anyway, MG, that's my long-winded way of saying you are kinda judgy about people's faith journeys because they didn't end up where you are. You want to talk about how much Church improves your life in the context of how much you feel Church improves your life, I'm generally not into bashing people who do so. Baby seals and whatnot. But in conversations where we aren't talking about that but about facts, truth, and how one sorts though things to try and arrive at truth as best they can? That demands we treat that as the subject.

It says something that you are trying to sort people into moral boxes or assign someone who has arrived in a different place to a category where they either never had a testimony or were led out by Satan or what have you. And not good things about you. You should think more about why you are willing to tear down people, if only in your mind, to be able to support whatever it is about the Church you feel deserves that level of loyalty it can buy your integrity.

I don't envy you that.

[_honorentheos]

So when the Book of Mormon was published in 1830 and 1 Nephi 11:21 read, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!" were they the words that Nephi wrote down in context and content, just in another language than english?

Yes.

So when it was changed in 1837 to read, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!", who made that decision to depart from the words of Nephi in such a way that completely revises the theological implications of the verse?

Also, based on your scriptural knowledge how much of the American continents were occupied by the Nephites and Lamanites, descendants of Lehi?

Hard to tell. Initially obviously it would have been a very small area. It was just Lehi and his family. Even after several generations it would have remained a very small area. But towards the end of their history the coverage seems to have been quite large, and there were also large scale migrations to the distant parts of the land.

So when you asked me about what other cultures where around you do at least imagine there were other cultures around? That the three migrations described in the Book of Mormon do not account for the primary inhabitants of the Americas at the time?

[_mentalgymnast]

Anyway, MG, that's my long-winded way of saying you are kinda judgy about people's faith journeys because they didn't end up where you are.

I respect where your faith journey has taken you.

You want to talk about how much Church improves your life in the context of how much you feel Church improves your life, I'm generally not into bashing people who do so.

And I have noticed that, on the whole.

But in conversations where we aren't talking about that but about facts, truth, and how one sorts though things to try and arrive at truth as best they can? That demands we treat that as the subject.

I get that this is where you're coming from. To be honest, I don't have the skill/talent for rhetorical flourish that you have. I'm not trained in logic and/or philosophical inquiry/theory, etc., except for that which I have read on my own. But I have tried to look at things rather dispassionately as I have investigated things over the last 20+ years. I have and continue to travel a difficult path. By nature I tend to be a materialist (show me!) in the strictest 'observable' sense of being a materialist. And that creates difficulty between me and the Spirit and/or the metaphysical. I envy those that seem to think that they have received a "sure witness" from God that to them is objective rather than subjective.

It says something that you are trying to sort people into moral boxes or assign someone who has arrived in a different place to a category where they either never had a testimony or were led out by Satan or what have you.

OK. Let me be clear. I think that different people lose their faith in God and/or their faith in Mormonism in particular for various reasons. I know there are people of high moral standards that leave the church and people of lower moral standards that leave the church. It is such a mix that I think each case has to be looked at individually.

I have argued the possibility recently that I think that it is more likely that an atheist/agnostic would be more likely to rationalize not being strictly truthful and feel comfortable twisting the truth because they are not accountable to God for doing so, etc. But I cannot quantify that, and I think I said as much.

You should think more about why you are willing to tear down people, if only in your mind, to be able to support whatever it is about the Church you feel deserves that level of loyalty it can buy your integrity.

If I have torn you down, personally, I apologize. I don't think that you deserve it. At times if I am a bit frustrated with certain people on the board, some of that frustration may spread to those that really don't deserve it.

Honor, thank you VERY MUCH for baring your soul a bit and sharing your history. I wish that others would do so more often. It's difficult coming in here and sharing a LOT of my thinking/self about this and that and then being made a caricature of something that I know I'm not. But what's frustrating is having that done by people who I REALLY don't know anything about except that they have a common discontent with either Mormons, Mormonism, God, the LDS Church, or leaders. But that's ALL I know. It's unfortunate that we can't actually sit down and talk with each other in person.

Quasimodo would be a fun person to meet, I think. As would you. There are some others here that I would LOVE to do lunch with and get to know face to face. As it is, some folks here think they know me, but they really don't.

So...thanks again, honor. It is posts like yours where there is actually something of 'the person' invested in what's being said that helps us/me understand the 'man/woman behind the curtain'.

Regards,
MG

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I/we ought/should thank/recognize honor/mg/others for sharing/compartmentalizing the themes/topics/ subjects discussed/pondered on this thread/stream of conciousness.

Ffs/gosh darn it mg just pick/choose a word/idea and post/go with it/them.

- Doc/Cam

[_Sanctorian]

If I have torn you down, personally, I apologize. I don't think that you deserve it. At times if I am a bit frustrated with certain people on the board, some of that frustration may spread to those that really don't deserve it.

Where do you draw the distinction between those that deserve it and those that don't?

Honor, thank you VERY MUCH for baring your soul a bit and sharing your history. I wish that others would do so more often.

Interesting. When I shared my story you suggested it was fabricated. Other things you have suggested about me, mentally unstable, on or off medications, alcoholic, chronic weed user and the latest, that I'm more likely to be a liar because I'm atheist/agnostic.

Do you want more people to share their stories so you can trumpet how their stories are falsified? Is that what you're hoping?

It's unfortunate that we can't actually sit down and talk with each other in person.

I'll gladly meet you in person. I'll even buy you an Arnold Palmer.

[_Themis]

As I've listened to and read many accounts of the prophets and apostles...and others...claiming to have received revelation/inspiration from God, it has always been of interest to me that the process is literally that...a process. Inquire with faith, wait upon the Lord, and an answer comes.

This is the process of delusion. It doesn't matter whether you are LDS, Scientology, Hindu, Catholic, etc. It works quite well. Especially if your interpretation of some sensation has a positive emotional state with it.

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/2007/03/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

[_zerinus]

So when it was changed in 1837 to read, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!", who made that decision to depart from the words of Nephi in such a way that completely revises the theological implications of the verse?

Firstly, that change was made by Joseph Smith himself, who was the inspired translator of the book; and therefore it was within his legitimate authority to make such a change. Secondly, you are mistaken in your assertion that the change “completely revises the theological implications of the verse”. There are several passages in the Book of Mormon where Jesus is identified as both the Father and the Son, so that this particular change does not signify a radical change, or a departure from the underlying theology of the Book of Mormon, or of the meaning of the verse itself.

So when you asked me about what other cultures where around you do at least imagine there were other cultures around? That the three migrations described in the Book of Mormon do not account for the primary inhabitants of the Americas at the time?

I haven’t said that, so I don't know how you came to that​ conclusion. The Book of Mormon narrative affirms only those three migrations, and leaves open the possibility of other Israelite migrations not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon; but it rules out any accidental or unplanned migrations outside of the providence of God.