There is no free will in Mormonism

[_harmony]

The Church has a gun to my head? What exactly is the bullet? You can't belong to our club anymore? Why it's virtually the Holocaust all over again. Despite how dangerous it is you left. Either you have incredible fortitude and strength of character to defy the norm or you just walked out and the threats didn't come. I'll give you three guesses as to which one I think it is and the first two don't count.

For many, the bullet is: you'll lose your spouse and your family. Your marriage will be over, your job will be gone, your neighbors will hate you, your mother will cry all over you. That bullet has quite long-reaching circumstances for some people.

[_Jersey Girl]

The Church has a gun to my head? What exactly is the bullet? You can't belong to our club anymore? Why it's virtually the Holocaust all over again. Despite how dangerous it is you left. Either you have incredible fortitude and strength of character to defy the norm or you just walked out and the threats didn't come. I'll give you three guesses as to which one I think it is and the first two don't count.

For many, the bullet is: you'll lose your spouse and your family. Your marriage will be over, your job will be gone, your neighbors will hate you, your mother will cry all over you. That bullet has quite long-reaching circumstances for some people.

You won't get to attend your kids wedding and what should have been a day remembered as a source of joy will become a source of sadness. If you like, you can lie your way into it. You will be harrassed by some of your congregation and family until they give up and shun you. Your kids will question you as an authority figure because Satan and sinning are your new motivators.

Not in all cases, of course, but in many that I know of the above has been the case.

[_harmony]

The Church has a gun to my head? What exactly is the bullet? You can't belong to our club anymore? Why it's virtually the Holocaust all over again. Despite how dangerous it is you left. Either you have incredible fortitude and strength of character to defy the norm or you just walked out and the threats didn't come. I'll give you three guesses as to which one I think it is and the first two don't count.

For many, the bullet is: you'll lose your spouse and your family. Your marriage will be over, your job will be gone, your neighbors will hate you, your mother will cry all over you. That bullet has quite long-reaching circumstances for some people.

You won't get to attend your kids wedding and what should have been a day remembered as a source of joy will become a source of sadness. If you like, you can lie your way into it. You will be harrassed by some of your congregation and family until they give up and shun you. Your kids will question you as an authority figure because Satan and sinning are your new motivators.

Not in all cases, of course, but in many that I know of the above has been the case.

Never having been married, I think most of these are going right over his head, Jersey. The bullet for leaving is quite tangible, even though the promised reward for staying in is not.

[_Jason Bourne]

Alrighty...

I think the problem I have with this idea of free agency is the other idea that god is omniscient. If he knows all, then he knows what we will "choose", he knows where we will end up, and he knows whether we're screwed or not before the game begins. So it begs the question, "Why would he even bother?" (Not to mention "what's the point of Judgment Day?")

It's just so damn silly. In the most basic and fundamental terms, the gospel makes no freaking sense at all.

Many LDS thinkers do not think God has perfect absolute omniscience because of the conflict it has with free will

[_Jason Bourne]

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't have a f****** clue as to what you are talking about. All in all, an omnicient being would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc. its silly and pedantic to come up with your puttering stupidity equating minority report with a free will argument.

Laughable, as always, you f****** tool. Thanks for ruining minority report for me.

Ironically, in your livid haste to insult me, you clearly missed my simple, reasonable, and obvious point. I am fully aware that an omnicient being "would KNOW if you will sin, would KNOW what motivates you, etc.". Nothing I said could rationally be interpreted as suggesting otherwise (which explains why you did just that). In fact, I explicitly accounted for it in my "physical trainer" analogy. Sorry you failed to either read or comprehend it.

But, feel free to work yourself up into an apopletic fit over your misunderstanding. Such fits your unwittingly cartoonish flare. ;-)

By the way, my intent wasn't to ruin Minority Report, but rather to note certain philosophical issues I see addressed in the movie (whether intentionally or otherwise), that may not have been detected by certain other viewer. Apparently, in your case, you lack the capacity grasp them. So, you have yourself to thank for that movie supposedly being ruined.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I comprehended your "analogy" wade in the way I comprehend the irrational reasoning of a child.

Here is the thing wade, insulting you is like a garnish on a grand slam plate from dennys. You always get it even if you don't want it. Its just part of what I do. It drives the point home that you are a loser with nothing to really live for.

As for my lack of wit, I have more wit in my little finger than you have in your whole body.

The continually piss-poor analogies that spew forth from your conflicted village-idiot mentality do not prove anything aside from the fact that once again, you believe that truth can be obtained by making poor analogies. Outcome-based reasoning is what LOGIC is about. Instead your process involves stringing together a post devoid of anything substantial and instead stand behind the pathetic attempt at discussing the implications of your omnipotent imaginary friend.

Homer: "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

You end up with no way out. Either he is all knowing or he is limited. If he is all knowing then that breaks the ability for him to create a situation in which the futility of being tested is made evident. You fail to understand this, which is no surprise to me.

if god is limited then he is not god.

Oh look, god just exploded into a cloud of logic.

Merc

You really are a fricking tool. Go suck eggs a..hole. Wade is to kind to tell you that. Get a shrink for your anger issues dud.

[_Yoda]

It is true that a choice isn't normally said to be "free" if it is coerced. So if I put a gun to your head and tell you to dance, you dancing wasn't a choice you made of your own free will. If I were to say, "You had a free choice: dancing or risking being shot. Therefore your free will is intact," I would be making a dubious claim.

You just proved my point. Thanks. The church holds a proverbial gun to those it has coerced into believing in the Mormon fantasy. If you say otherwise you are foolish.

The Church has a gun to my head? What exactly is the bullet? You can't belong to our club anymore? Why it's virtually the Holocaust all over again. Despite how dangerous it is you left. Either you have incredible fortitude and strength of character to defy the norm or you just walked out and the threats didn't come. I'll give you three guesses as to which one I think it is and the first two don't count.

Actually, I think that Merc DOES have incredible fortitude and strength of character.

His Church experience is unique, Nehor. Unfortunately, there was a lot of abusive baggage that he endured, and the local Church leaders in his area were a contributor to that situation.

He is a survivor of abuse, and turned his life around. He is a good Dad, husband, and has a respectable career. That's why I don't come down on him quite as hard regarding some of his anger issues involving the Church.

Yes, I respect Merc a great deal.

[_Some Schmo]

The problem with your question is that it fails to take into account a large portion of the life-equation. It looks alone at things in terms of outcome, and in a mono-dimensional way, without considering the processes often needed to produce those outcome.

You can degrade the comment by calling it whatever you want, but trying to make it more complex than it is through bogus analogies and trumped up layering doesn't make it so.

If you know with perfect certainly what the outcomes will be, there's no point to the process, especially when the Mormons are always referring to our experience as a "test." What's there to test? Tests are conducted when the outcomes are not known.

It's somewhat like asking a physical trainer: "If you know, with perfect certainty, that through your program, and according to individual choice and action, which of your clients will become healthy, fit, and strong, and which will get fatter, or which will end up somewhere inbetween, then why would you even bother putting any of them through your program? What's the point of the check-up at the end of the program? Why not now just give those obese clients you know would become healthy and fit, a clean bill of health, and be done with it?

Wouldn't that be "damn silly"?

Here's the problem with your analogy, Wade: physical trainers aren't omniscient. God apparently is.

The other problem is that to a physical trainer, it doesn't matter so much whether he knows someone will get fit or not. He has the motivation to do his thing to get paid; that's his job.

Or are you saying God's employed?

Got another analogy?