Charity's view of how a prophet receives revelation

[_the road to hana]

If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing.

In whose reality?

[_ozemc]

Bro Dunn didn't just exaggerate. Bro Dunn made it up. That's called lying, charity. And Bro Dunn was a GA, an apostle, when he made it all up. What one GA did, others can do. Men lie; it's their nature. Lies of commision and lies of omission. Both are lies.

Let the buyer beware. Trusting men is trusting in the arm of flesh. If I'm going to trust an arm of flesh, it's going to be my own.

Brother Dunn was NOT an apostle. He Washington in the Quorum of the 70. Not that it makes what he did any more excusable, but you at least ought to be accurate, Harmony.

Men lie. It's their nature. Women, too? Or are you anti-men?

You can trust in any arm of flesh you want. I will try the Lord. If He tells me a man (or woman) is His servant, I believe Him.

Women too. Even you.

If God tells you something, you're still trusting in your own arm of the flesh. The reciever is flesh. Can't get away from it. It's a matter of which arm of the flesh you trust. I only trust my own.

Speak for yourself. I don't lie.

What do you suppose is meant in 2 Ne. 4: 34? "O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."

Oh c'mon .... you NEVER lie?

Not even to the policeman who asks you if you know how fast you were going?

Or how about that homeless person you see on the street everyday, who asks you for money everyday? Do you always give them money out of your pocket? Or do you say "Sorry, I don't have anything today."

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

[_Tidejwe]

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

Yeah, not even Abraham, Nephi, or even *GASP* GOD!

Ok, depends on your definition of lie, I suppose. God can be quite dishonest and deceitful. Some friends and I detailed a thread once and counted up more deceit on the side of God than of Satan (Satan was quite honest most of the time...God appeared to be the Father of lies as he had MORE than Satan did). Making Adam think he'd die "In the VERY DAY" he ate the fruit. Deceiving us into believing that there's a such thing as punishment with no end because he knew it would work upon the hearts of man to His glory (see D&C 19), and thus He was justified in tricking us (lying/deceiving us) into thinking that it's possible we could be damned forever and never escape prison. So was he lying when he said there's a such thing as Eternal damnation, or what He lying in D&C 19? Either way, even God lies/deceives, etc. Then there's the cases where God told someone to lie or deceive another, like he did with telling Abraham to lie about his wife. What about lying to Abraham telling him that He wanted Abraham to KILL his son? God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his own son, he was just lying to test Abraham and see if he would actually go through with it. What about the promises God made to Isaiah and David and others that never happened or came true? Is God a liar or incompetent? We could list MANY examples of this...but it's odd how much emphasis there is on honesty and integrity and the scriptures are rife with righteous deceit...so it's apparently not ALWAYS a bad thing. Of course, if God is willing to deceive us about Eternal Damnation, then what else has he told us that's not true simply because it makes us act the way we should? Perhaps someone could start a new thread on this matter before we thread-jack too much...I just wanted to point out that EVEN GOD LIES, as the subject was brought up by someone else...

[_charity]

Oh c'mon .... you NEVER lie?

Not even to the policeman who asks you if you know how fast you were going?

Or how about that homeless person you see on the street everyday, who asks you for money everyday? Do you always give them money out of your pocket? Or do you say "Sorry, I don't have anything today."

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

The last time I goit stopped for speeding, I told the officer the truth. I hadn't noticed my speed because I was listening to an interview on the radio with Charlton Heston. The truth. (Yes, it has been a few years since that happened.) The officer gave me a warning.

I don't see any homeless people in my daily life. I leave my house two days a week, three days counting Sunday and where I go there are no homeless people. When I get solicitation calls I tell the solicotrs I don't care to donate to their cause, which is the truth.

Next question?

[_The Nehor]

Well, she's participated in the indoctrination of her own self, as we all did, at least those of us who were TBMs at one time.

Charity's worldview now contains some axioms and values which are assumed true by her, unconsciously even, and judging by them what she says makes total sense. It's like one of us judging that if someone drops something, it'll fall.

Imagine how odd that might seem to someone from a universe where gravity didn't exist. We'd predict that someone would drop something and it would fall, and they'd shake their head in disbelief and say "what, you mean you think it'll just start moving off in that direction just because someone let go of it? that's absurd!"

In Charity's virtual reality, it all makes the most perfect sense. And when DCP or Hamblin or any of the others make some apologetic argument, it all rings true to her, because her values and axioms, and the apologetic arguments, all stem from the same source, and so are in harmony with each other.

Your nice little analysis there only works if I am wrong. IF. I am happy as I am. If I am wrong, then I have lost nothing. If you are happy the way you are, then good for you. But if you are worng? Think about it.

Yes, Charity, if you're wrong and the EVs are correct, you can look forward to an eternity of roasting and basting. Wouldn't it be wiser to hedge your bet so that if you are wrong, then the cost isn't quite so high?

I mean, if you convert to EV, and you're wrong, God'll give you a nice, reasonably confy mansion in the terrestial kingdom. Not so bad. Beats the hell out of roasting and basting.

So, here's the tradeoff:

Stay Mormon and right: Eternal pregnancy along with multiple sister wives within a harem of celestial sisters and ruled over by some Celestial rutting stud
Stay Mormon and wrong: Eternal roasting and basting

Convert to EV and right: Eternity spent in singing praise and obsequiece ass-kissing fawning over loving God (but one with a nasty streak who enjoys obsequice ass-kissing fawning and who enjoys now and then comdenming otherwise decent people to an eternity of roasting and basting)
Convert to EV and wrong: Comfy mansion in the terrestial kingdom. Not eternally pregnant, not part of a harem ruled over by some Celestial rutting stud

Think about it.

After analysis I'll stick to where I am. If I'm right I apparantly get to be a Celestial rutting stud. More importantly, I get to rule the cosmos, hold dance parties in a supernova, and play billiards with spare planetary matter.

If I fail I get to rule hell and beat up on that punk Satan.

If I go EV, I might make the Terrestrial but I think I'd rather rule in hell. If they're right and a proclamation of belief in the Savior saves then they'll let anyone in and I can't be bothered to join them.

If I go athiest and I'm wrong, again, I'd rather rule in hell. If they're right, then I'm worm food and I intend to give the little buggers indigestion.

[_Roger Morrison]

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

Yeah, not even Abraham, Nephi, or even *GASP* GOD!

Ok, depends on your definition of lie, I suppose. God can be quite dishonest and deceitful. Some friends and I detailed a thread once and counted up more deceit on the side of God than of Satan (Satan was quite honest most of the time...God appeared to be the Father of lies as he had MORE than Satan did). Making Adam think he'd die "In the VERY DAY" he ate the fruit. Deceiving us into believing that there's a such thing as punishment with no end because he knew it would work upon the hearts of man to His glory (see D&C 19), and thus He was justified in tricking us (lying/deceiving us) into thinking that it's possible we could be damned forever and never escape prison. So was he lying when he said there's a such thing as Eternal damnation, or what He lying in D&C 19? Either way, even God lies/deceives, etc. Then there's the cases where God told someone to lie or deceive another, like he did with telling Abraham to lie about his wife. What about lying to Abraham telling him that He wanted Abraham to KILL his son? God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his own son, he was just lying to test Abraham and see if he would actually go through with it. What about the promises God made to Isaiah and David and others that never happened or came true? Is God a liar or incompetent? We could list MANY examples of this...but it's odd how much emphasis there is on honesty and integrity and the scriptures are rife with righteous deceit...so it's apparently not ALWAYS a bad thing. Of course, if God is willing to deceive us about Eternal Damnation, then what else has he told us that's not true simply because it makes us act the way we should? Perhaps someone could start a new thread on this matter before we thread-jack too much...I just wanted to point out that EVEN GOD LIES, as the subject was brought up by someone else...

One of the best--concise, purposeful, objective--MDB posts ever! Then followed with your superbly articulated, sensible "tag" or whatever that add-on is called, sets You apart as someone who has the church in its proper "useful" secular/societal/community roles. IMSCO... Warm Regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Charity asks, "Next question?" Come-on Sis, how about answering/responding to, those as yet unanswered questions above? I know it's hard to keep up, but you are THE topic ;-). Oh, and digest Tide's post above, then rationalize his points into your irrational assertions.
Warm regards, Roger

[_charity]

Roger says this deserves to be responded to. So I will make bolded comments in the body of it.

Ok, depends on your definition of lie, I suppose. God can be quite dishonest and deceitful. Some friends and I detailed a thread once and counted up more deceit on the side of God than of Satan (Satan was quite honest most of the time...God appeared to be the Father of lies as he had MORE than Satan did).

Not only is this absolutely untrue, but it is blasphemous.

Making Adam think he'd die "In the VERY DAY" he ate the fruit.

This was true. Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death that very day. They were no longer in the presence of God. Your lack of understanding does not make God a liar.

Deceiving us into believing that there's a such thing as punishment with no end because he knew it would work upon the hearts of man to His glory (see D&C 19), and thus He was justified in tricking us (lying/deceiving us) into thinking that it's possible we could be damned forever and never escape prison. So was he lying when he said there's a such thing as Eternal damnation, or what He lying in D&C 19?

Again, your lack of understanding does not equal lying on God's part. There is Eternal damnation. You know what being damned means? Stopped. Halted. There are those who will be stopped or halted in their progression. Only those who are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom will see eternal increase. All others will be stopped or damned. That is eternal punishment in one sense. But you simply fail to see that whatever God's punishment is is ENDLESS because that's his name. You are then defining the word in your own terms as being forever. God said that is not the definition.

What about lying to Abraham telling him that He wanted Abraham to KILL his son? God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his own son, he was just lying to test Abraham and see if he would actually go through with it.

Genesis 22:1-2 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Do you see the phrase "I want you" in there? Nope. Again you have misread, misunderstood. God never said he wanted him do. He just said for him to do it.

What about the promises God made to Isaiah and David and others that never happened or came true? Is God a liar or incompetent?

Here again, you have misread and misinterpreted and misundestood. Many promises are conditional. IF you do this THEN I will do that. And if the IF part isn't carried out, then THEN part is withheld. This is an easy concept for most of us. It seems to be prety difficult for others. Since this is a common construct in logic, this is a real puzzle. Why some can't see it.

Perhaps someone could start a new thread on this matter before we thread-jack too much...I just wanted to point out that EVEN GOD LIES, as the subject was brought up by someone else...

You have merely pointed out that you add things in to scriptures that aren't there, don't understand the meaning of words, and are either unwilling or unable to use logic.

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks Charity. However, it appears to me that your response is simply a repetion of what i imagine Tide, and most posters are well aware of. Tide was, as many here, a LDS missionary.

What you do not seem to grasp: You reference "God" data that others--few or many--have left behind as mythological legend that served to socialize a primitive nomadic tribe.

Quite successfully as a matter of fact, which does not mean it was an assertion of truth. It was simply based on principles of authoritarianism using fear, guilt, demeaning individual self-confidence and personal worthiness to establish their tribal culture.

Stating Tide is "blasphemous" demonstrates your own, and your 'teachers', ignorance and misconception of "God". Most "damning" as it "stops" you and they in their/your proverbial, "tracks". As the teacher from Nazareth told the hypocrical, self-righteous Pharasees and the Jewish hiearchy of his time, "...you don't know "God"...you've become a den of theives..." "...you kick against the truth..."

Respectfully Charity, have you ever considered your self, and Mormonism among other persuasions, from that perspective? I think if you read Tide's "signature" you will see he has resolved, accomodated and enjoys LDSism for exactly what it is. Not for what it professes to be.

IMSCO, the Bible "God", as theologically presented, has not lead to the truths of discovery, and 'revelation' upon which humanity has advanced. To the contrary, the radical believers who influenced religious thought and behavior, have tended to close minds to most else but their edicts and Institutional Order

Yes Charity, their is a "God". Nondenominational, nonsectarian, nonreligious, nameless, without favourites, does not covenant with "special folks", makes no promises of Heaven or Hell, completely objective.

That "God" holds out "blessings" to the wise, and lucky, who unearth or stumble upon, universal laws that cannot be contravened. Some have said, "...He's a "God" of love..." I understand "God" to be of order-and-grace. "...rain, sun, resources to all..." As much as man will abide "God".

When there might appear to be a "God intervention", it is simply an application of the law upon which that "intervention" is based. We have many "laws" to yet understand. Be assured, what might be considered supernarural to the superstitious and ignorant, are indeed natural and Universal. There is no "Secret".

Possibly you have thought/heard these things before?? Be that as it may. However, they are my personal convictions...

"Walk a mile in my shoes."?? 'Climb my mountain!' :-) Warm regards, Roger

[_charity]

Thanks Charity. However, it appears to me that your response is simply a repetion of what I imagine Tide, and most posters are well aware of. Tide was, as many here, a LDS missionary.

So I should only post if I have some kind of new idea?

What you do not seem to grasp: You reference "God" data that others--few or many--have left behind as mythological legend that served to socialize a primitive nomadic tribe. Quite successfully as a matter of fact, which does not mean it was an assertion of truth. It was simply based on principles of authoritarianism using fear, guilt, demeaning individual self-confidence and personal worthiness to establish their tribal culture.

I understand quite well that others have worked around their erroneous ideas in their own minds until they have come up with the man made conclusion that God of the Old Testament is just a myth. This reliance on secular concepts doesn't make them right.

[
Stating Tide is "blasphemous" demonstrates your own, and your 'teachers', ignorance and misconception of "God". Most "damning" as it "stops" you and they in their/your proverbial, "tracks". As the teacher from Nazareth told the hypocrical, self-righteous Pharasees and the Jewish hiearchy of his time, "...you don't know "God"...you've become a den of theives..." "...you kick against the truth..."

Of course, we don't really "know" God in our limited mortal state. But we certainly know what He isn't. And He isn't a liar. To say He is blasphemous.

[
Respectfully Charity, have you ever considered your self, and Mormonism among other persuasions, from that perspective? I think if you read Tide's "signature" you will see he has resolved, accomodated and enjoys LDSism for exactly what it is. Not for what it professes to be.

I joined the Church as an adult. I considered "Mormonism" very carefully before I joined. So please don't act as though I am some nitwit who never gave a thought to the matter.

Yes Charity, their is a "God". Nondenominational, nonsectarian, nonreligious, nameless, without favourites, does not covenant with "special folks", makes no promises of Heaven or Hell, completely objective. That "God" holds out "blessings" to the wise, and lucky, who unearth or stumble upon, universal laws that cannot be contravened. Some have said, "...He's a "God" of love..." I understand "God" to be of order-and-grace. "...rain, sun, resources to all..." As much as man will abide "God".

Your "God" may be all those things to you. But God, our Heavenly Father, who loves all His children, nevertheless does make covenenta, and makes promises to us, dependent upon our obedience.

[
When there might appear to be a "God intervention", it is simply an application of the law upon which that "intervention" is based. We have many "laws" to yet understand. Be assured, what might be considered supernarural to the superstitious and ignorant, are indeed natural and Universal. There is no "Secret". Possibly you have thought/heard these things before?? Be that as it may. However, they are my personal convictions...

I agree that as we apply universal laws, we obtain the results of that obedience. And God operates according to law. When we see something as "miracles" it is because of the operation of laws we don't understand.

Again, please don't be so condescending.