The worst thing about Mormonism

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Dart. I understand your point that the scientific method cannot be used to address specific religious claims. I'm not retarded.

You're a breath of fresh air.
The scientific method is grounded in testability and repeatibility. Many religious claims (I.e. the existance of god, that the body has a soul) cannot be tested.

Correct, which was essentially my point. This would be like trying to verify a Chinese translation using the Rosetta Stone.
The approach you take, that science and religion are two separate ways of knowing, is essentially correct.

You won't get an argument from me. I agree. But Schmo had a conniption fit when I said it.
Gould describes this approach as NOMA (religion and science represent non-overlapping magisteria). I'm up to date on what can and cannot be explained by the scientific method (which I use everyday in my research).

You've already agreed with the points above, so I have no reason to doubt your education on this. You're not retarded; Schmo is.
My post was not an argument to your position. In fact, it wasn't an argument at all, yet you treat it as such, with your point by point critique.

I was just emphasizing my point that science currently is not able to test religion, I wasn't picking a fight. You're holding out hope that eventually it will be able to test religion, but this could either prove true or it could simply be wishful thinking. And yes, I am aware of the limitations of science with respect to the human conscience.
Have you read the works of either of the authors I mentioned? They can explain much better what I tried to state in a few sentences.

I ordered them after you posted them. I've read Lewontin and Dawkins, but it has been a while. I find the entire subject absolutely fascinating, and have considered going back to school to do graduate studies in sociobiology.
If religion is a natural phenomenon, if it is a selected trait that's beneficial for survival, why shouldn't scientists use the scientific method to study it?

Again, science doesn't tell us enough about the human conscience to know definitively where theistic beliefs come from. You believe one day it might. That's fine. I have no problem with that so long as you realize it currently doesn't.
You seem pretty confident that science does not have many answers in this area.

This isn't a matter confidence; it is a matter of fact. Of course, I suppose "many" is relative.
Neurotheology is in its infancy. Give it some time...you might learn something.

Neurotheology will probably suffer the same fate as parapsychology.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

silentkid wrote: The approach you take, that science and religion are two separate ways of knowing, is essentially correct.


Out of curiosity, what specific things can one "know" via the religious method?

Religion is not a way of "knowing," it is a way of believing, or reasoning (or lack of reasoning). Religion has no reliable, verifiable, replicable, objective method to know anything.

I believe that something akin to the scientific process can be used to test religions truth claims. It involves the process of establishing hypotheses, clarifying assumptions, and using reasoning and observation to test the validity of hypotheses.

For example, the religious assertion that God is a "loving father," is easily shown to be false through this process, it depends on how we define "loving father." By almost any reasonable definition one can think of, a "loving father' does not kill his children because they disobey him. Ergo, God is not a loving father.

See, I just disproved one of the common religious assertions of Christianity.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

guy sajer wrote: Out of curiosity, what specific things can one "know" via the religious method?


You're opening a can of worms here, guy.

Intelligent people understand that you can't know anything from religion. Morons have some fantasy that you can.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:But Schmo had a conniption fit when I said it.


LMAO... project much?

There there... It's ok, widdo boy. Yo mommy will be home soon to take care wuv you. You're just so upset, aren't you, widdo boy? Yes you are! Oh yes you are! ...Look at the rattle! Look at that rattle! See it? There it is! It's so shiny, isn't it? Yes it is! It's ok... there, there... stop your fussing... that's right...
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

May I just say that I find the back and forth between Schmo and Kevin on this thread much more entertaining than the back and forth between Marg and Moniker on the Religion is Dangerous thread?

OK, yes, this is a derail...sorry. Just observation. Carry on.

;)
_dartagnan
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Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

Schmo can't debate, but this much is already obvious. He abandons every point he tried to establish once it has been refuted.

This is one of the things I pointed out when he first came at me a week or so ago, and he has been upset about it ever since. His responses are always the same. He acts like he's really laughing at something while trying to ease his own frustration with silly rhetoric. His frustration is that he can't argue any points intelligently so rhetoric is his way of trying to compensate for that defect. And then he starts acting like his opponent is the one going crazy. Yea, I'm the one whose really unhinged here, aren't I?

His responses amount to nothing more than "You're a moron if you believe that."

This whole thing started because I said religion was one of three ways of knowing. I was simply reiterating what one atheist had said. Schmo then went off at the lip, accusing me of being "beyond reason." And then it turned out silentkid and Ck ended up agreeing with me. Schmo hasn't recovered from that one yet.

Schmo doesn't understand that trix are for kids, and he is apparently here for social acceptance, not to discuss issues. He feels I have wandered off the reservation of the established tribe, which is why he makes these ridiculous pot shots about me being a former LDS apologist - like that's news and like that is going to help him. He is essentially acting like the folks at MADB did when they were in the process of excommunicating me ("He criticizes us more than he defends us, let's be rid of him!")

Funny how my history has never done anything to damage my credibility before. In fact, the opposite is true. What the heck has Schmo ever contributed to these debates? He merely follows those who repeat what he likes to hear and then acts like an obedient gimp to defend them (this is like a 300lb batter paying the waterboy to rush the mound for him). He offers no original substance of his own, just childhood antics.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

liz3564 wrote:May I just say that I find the back and forth between Schmo and Kevin on this thread much more entertaining than the back and forth between Marg and Moniker on the Religion is Dangerous thread?

OK, yes, this is a derail...sorry. Just observation. Carry on.

;)


For what it's worth, while I love GIMR, I think her quote in your signature line is totally false.

It's hard, for example, for me to respect anyone within the high leadership of the KKK. Persons need to earn our respect. They aren't given it as some kind of entitlement.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:Schmo can't debate, but this much is already obvious. He abandons every point he tried to establish once it has been refuted.

This is one of the things I pointed out when he first came at me a week or so ago, and he has been upset about it ever since. His responses are always the same. He acts like he's really laughing at something while trying to ease his own frustration with silly rhetoric. His frustration is that he can't argue any points intelligently so rhetoric is his way of trying to compensate for that defect. And then he starts acting like his opponent is the one going crazy. Yea, I'm the one whose really unhinged here, aren't I?

His responses amount to nothing more than "You're a moron if you believe that."

This whole thing started because I said religion was one of three ways of knowing. I was simply reiterating what one atheist had said. Schmo then went off at the lip, accusing me of being "beyond reason." And then it turned out silentkid and Ck ended up agreeing with me. Schmo hasn't recovered from that one yet.

Schmo doesn't understand that trix are for kids, and he is apparently here for social acceptance, not to discuss issues. He feels I have wandered off the reservation of the established tribe, which is why he makes these ridiculous pot shots about me being a former LDS apologist - like that's news and like that is going to help him. He is essentially acting like the folks at MADB did when they were in the process of excommunicating me ("He criticizes us more than he defends us, let's be rid of him!")

Funny how my history has never done anything to damage my credibility before. In fact, the opposite is true. What the heck has Schmo ever contributed to these debates? He merely follows those who repeat what he likes to hear and then acts like an obedient gimp to defend them (this is like a 300lb batter paying the waterboy to rush the mound for him). He offers no original substance of his own, just childhood antics.


Why are you such a sad panda? Put on your happy panda face.

There's a good panda.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Post by _Some Schmo »

silentkid wrote:


Your silence is deafening.

:D
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

As your ignorance is annoying.

I see you're now attacking CK and silentkid for being "morons," too. I wonder how long before you turn on guy sajer.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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