Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:
In my case, just to be clear, it's not a matter of "double standards."

I simply don't see myself as an internet judge. I respond where I want to, when I want to, to whom I want to respond, regarding whatever I want to respond to.

I'm happy to let moderators be moderators.

So then my original statement was pretty much correct, wasn't it?

No. That's a non sequitur.

beastie wrote:Fellow apologists most likely wouldn't have had a problem with Kevin's behavior, had he toed the party line (or, in your personal case, the Islamic party line).

I can't speak for other figments of the Morg hive-mind, but I've already denied your claim that it was the substance of Kevin's position on Islam that was crucial in my case. Robert Spencer holds essentially the same position regarding Islam that Kevin does (which is, I think, not purely coincidental), and I'm demonstrably willing to engage Robert Spencer, having now done so three times, quite publicly.

I've already said this. I've just said it again. Would it help if I were to repeat it a few more times? How many more times, in your view, would be optimal?
_beastie
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _beastie »

Well, let me rephrase my statement. If Kevin had toed the party line and had not had confrontations with apologists on issues near and dear to their hearts*, had he confined his bad behavior and intense confrontations with those on the "other" side of the fence, then likely apologists would not have vocalized any discomfort with Kevin's behavior, as the Pahoran test case demonstrates.



*I referred to the Islamic issue because it is the only one I recall seeing Kevin, as a believer, intensely confront other believers. There may be other cases, but I'm not a mind reader, so I can't mention them.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_EAllusion
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _EAllusion »

While it is doubtless true the nature of message board communication can free people up to be much nastier than they would be in person, I think the point can be made stronger. It's not as though a person who is friendly and kind in some aspects of their life need be in others. I had a neighbor who was a a rather contemptible racist. His treatment of people he described as "Mexican" was terrible. I never saw it, but he bragged about it and others told confirming stories about it. When I interacted with him, he was nothing but kind. He ended up becoming a police officer where I'm sure he did much good (and, sadly, probably some things that are terrible.) People can be great in some of their dealings with people while being awful in others.

My favorite Pahoran thread, which I can't currently locate much to my chagrin, is where he tried to build a case that exmormons are prone to violence against Mormons by referring to an australian murder case where an excommunicated Mormon killed his family.


I remember that. Good stuff. Maybe I'll be able to hunt it down. The first step probably will be to find some of the names involved in the story.

Jack -

I agree that DCP is under no obligation to go after Pahoran. His silence might involve double standards, but you won't find me saying that it is his duty to rebuke Pahoran. My interest is limited to his statements about his disavowals of one but not the other. He said he does not agree with Beastie saying Pahoran was as offensive as Kevin. There's nothing wrong with pointing out what Pahoran does to point out the nature of DCP's offense calculus.
_beastie
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _beastie »

I remember that. Good stuff. Maybe I'll be able to hunt it down. The first step probably will be to find some of the names involved in the story.


I found the articles zoobie sent me, and it includes the names, but a google search didn't turn up any hits.

It's a disturbing story, folks may want to skip this part if they're not particularly interested:

Copyright 1994 Nationwide News Pty Limited
The Advertiser



July 11, 1994 Monday


LENGTH: 308 words

HEADLINE: Victim told of threat to kill

BODY:
MELBOURNE: A woman who was incinerated with her three children desperately wanted people to know her husband had threatened to kill her, a church elder said.

Bishop Jeffrey Tempany, an elder of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints, said yesterday Nilla Manna, of outer suburban Boronia, sent him a letter expressing her fears about her husband.

The bodies of Gennaro (Gino) Manna, Mrs Manna, 33, and their three children Ida, 11, Chiarina, 7, and Johncarmine, 5, were found in the Dixon Ct house after a fire broke out about 3.30am on Saturday. Police have confirmed two of the bodies had gunshot wounds. They were treating the fire as a murder-suicide.

Bishop Tempany, of the Knox ward of the Mormon Church, said Mrs Manna wrote: "Bishop, if I die, if I'm killed; I want you to know that he has threatened to kill me." "She felt it might happen . . . the last time I met her she said 'I don't know what to do. I love my husband, I have loyalty to my husband, but I can see the life I am living is desperately tragic, desperately sad. I'm not happy, what do I do?' "She said half-jokingly last week: 'Next time I see you, I'll meet you in the spirit world'." Bishop Tempany said Manna had been ex-communicated from the Mormon church about 12 months ago for "reputed child and wife abuse".

Bishop Tempany said Manna had been in psychiatric hospitals and had become violent and abusive since he stopped taking medication for schizophrenia 12 months ago.

"In an ideal world there could have been some kind of monitoring where, if he wasn't taking his medication, his wife had the power to ask someone to do something about it," he said.

"What Nilla wanted was to be with her children and to be happy. I have no doubt that Nilla and the children are happy, because they have lived in hell, they have lived in hell on Earth."


Copyright 1994 Nationwide News Pty Limited
The Advertiser



July 11, 1994 Monday


LENGTH: 680 words

HEADLINE: Fatal obsession that took a family

BYLINE: MICHELLE COFFEY

BODY:
MELBOURNE: His family's privacy was the ultimate obsession of the fanatical Gino Manna.

High steel fences, metallic window shutters and heavy security doors ensured the family's neighbors only knew what Gino wanted them to know.

That fanaticism about privacy appears to have cost Manna, his wife and his three young children their lives.

No fence was able to hide the fact the Mannas' marriage was not working. After 14 years of a deteriorating marriage, Mrs Nilla Manna, 33, had finally gathered up the courage to leave her husband, a schizophrenic who had not taken his medication for the past 12 months.

The thought of his wife airing the family's dirty laundry was too much for Manna to take.

Just months ago Manna had confided in a friend that if he "went down" he would take his family with him. The prophecy became a tragic reality at the weekend.

But to the end Manna was obsessed with keeping up the facade of a perfect marriage where he was in control of the family.

Mrs Peggy Plath told yesterday how a year ago she saw Manna pulling his wife by the hair through the street and yelling at her to get inside the house.

"He realised I had seen her and so he came across and told me to go to his house and get Nilla to apologise to me for causing a ruckus," Mrs Plath said.

"Then last month he kept coming up to me demanding I ignore anything Nilla told me.

"The fact was I never even spoke to his wife. No one ever really saw her. He was imagining that she was going around talking about their lives behind his back but that simply wasn't the case." One woman who befriended Mrs Manna said she was a private person, "but not by choice".

"Self-preservation ruled," the neighbor, who did not want to be named, said.

"Nilla knew what the repercussions of having friends would be.

"She never really spoke about leaving Gino because he had threatened he would find her wherever she went." The woman said Manna seemed the type of husband who enjoyed the thrill of power and was obsessed with physical fitness. He did not drink or smoke.

He would not let his wife drive his V8 Holden, which often meant she had to walk her three children to school in the rain.

"Nilla used to tell me how he loved denigrating her by doing things like saying women with long hair were dumb, knowing she had long hair," she said.

"And he used the Mormon religion to have power over his wife and children, using the teachings to tell them how they should live their lives.

"A lot of his friends were Arabs. He mixed with the type of men that would keep their wives under the thumb." Ross and Phyllis Hookey, who lived two doors up from the Mannas, agreed Gino Manna enjoyed power. "They had a lot of dogs in his backyard and we know he beat at least one of them to death," Mr Hookey said.

"He threatened anyone in the street who he thought was trying to invade his privacy.

"He just didn't want anyone to know anything about his personal life and if he thought people were prying he would get very angry.

"Just before Christmas he thought I had dobbed him in to the police for his dogs barking all the time.

"I hadn't but he came up to me and told me what happened in his house was his business. I didn't know if he was talking about the dogs or the fights between him and his wife, but he told me he had ways of fixing me up if I interfered in his life." An Italian friend of Manna's, Mr Pasquale Accetto, said the couple were "like a negative and postive wire - there were always sparks".

"He may have loved her once but towards the end there was a lot of hate when he spoke of her," Mr Accetto said.

"It was her side of the family who had all the money and she owned the house.

"He was ferociously possessive of that house, it was his land and his home and he was telling me the Mormons were trying to take his house from him by getting her to hand it over to them.

"About two months ago he told me if he went down he would take everyone with him.

"I knew what he meant but people are always threatening things. I guess I should have taken him more seriously."



Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited
The Advertiser



June 6, 1995 Tuesday


LENGTH: 524 words

HEADLINE: Children doused with petrol House was set to go up like an;
inferno, inquest told

BYLINE: ANITA QUIGLEY

BODY:
in Melbourne The body of a 10-year-old girl was found stretched over the charred remains of her younger sister and brother, a coroner heard yesterday.

The three youngsters had been doused with petrol - and one of them shot in the neck - before their home was set alight.

An inquest into the deaths of five members of the family heard that Gennaro (Gino) Manna, 38, kept his wife, Nilla, 33, and their three children Ida, 10, Chiarina, 7, and John-Carmine, 4, prisoners in their fortress-like home in the months before their deaths on July 9 last year. Ida, Chiarina and John-Carmine were described as "always sad" children who appeared haunted and never really smiled.

Mr Manna, who suffered from schizophrenia, was depicted in court as a "Rambo-type" who often wore army greens and kept a knife in the side of his boot.

He had been recently excommunicated from his church after threatening members and his family.

The Coroner, Ms Jacinta Heffey, who is investigating the five deaths, also heard that: MORE than 2000 rounds of ammunition and three rifles were found in the house after the fire.

MORE than 100 litres of accelerant were used to fuel the blaze.

THE three youngsters, including Chiarina who had been shot, were found huddled together beneath a collapsed bunk bed.

THE body of their mother was found still saturated in petrol after the fire had been extinguished.

MR MANNA had written scriptures on the walls of the house and believed he played a pivotal role in world affairs.

A NOTE was found in the laundry of the house including the words "Let the loved ones RIP".

Police said they had been called to the home up to 30 times in the 18 months before the tragedy to intervene in domestic disputes and had unsuccessfully searched the house for firearms.

Family friends told the court that Mrs Manna had been urged to leave her husband many times, but had refused because she feared for the safety of her own family.

Police had also offered to help her escape from her husband.

Mr Jeffrey Tempany, a senior member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the Mormon church, said Mr Manna had been excommunicated for "conduct unbecoming". "He was isolating his family from society," he said.

"Gino ruled his family in a cruel patriarchal manner.

"No one was to tell Gino what to do . . . he said he was the husband and could do what he wanted.

"She (his wife) said on numerous occasions he hit her and threw objects at her . . . there were holes in the walls and doors . . . at one stage he had chased her with an axe." Mr Tempany said he often spoke with the children and found that they were always sad.

"They appeared haunted and never really smiled," he said.

Forensic scientist Dr Olga Korytsky said the fire, which started about 3.30am, had been very well planned and would have taken some time to set up.

She said remnants of material and newspaper had been strewn between tins of petrol, kerosene and automotive diesel fuel to form a trail throughout the house.

"Whoever did it wanted it to all go up like an inferno . . . they wanted nothing left," Dr Korytsky said.



Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited
Herald Sun



June 7, 1995 Wednesday


LENGTH: 464 words

HEADLINE: ZULU NAME CHANGE BEFORE FATAL INFERNO

BYLINE: QUIGLEY A

BODY:
A MAN found burnt to death in his Boronia home with his wife and three children changed his name to that of Zulu king Shaka shortly before his death, a coroner heard yesterday. And a policeman called to the home after a domestic dispute said he drew a plan of the house because he felt police might one day need to enter it in a hurry.



Gennaro (Gino) Manna, 38, and his wife Nilla, 33, and their three children Ida, 10, Chiarina, 7, and John-Carmine, 4, died when their Dixon critical race theory home was set alight on July 9 last year. The three youngsters and their mother had been doused with petrol - and one of the children shot in the neck - before the fire was lit. The inquest heard that Mr Manna, who had schizophrenia, kept his family prisoners in the fortress-like home and was described as a "Rambo-type" who often wore army greens and carried a knife in his boot.



Melbourne Coroner's Court heard Gennaro Manna, 38, thought Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein were Christlike. It also heard he had changed the name on his driver's licence to Shaka Manna, a Zulu warrior king, and pegged it to a tree in his back yard.



Sen-Constable Simon Webb told the hearing he searched the property for firearms after becoming concerned Mr Manna was not mentally well enough to own any. He said although he found no guns - Mr Manna later told police they had been stolen from his car - Sen-Constable Webb did not believe him and suspected he had them hidden. Mr Hanna was listed on the firearms registry as owning a Ruger rifle. He later had his firearm licence taken from him. Sen-Constable Paul Ashby, assisting the coroner, said police found a copy of the firearms safety code in the Mannas' backyard. He said a message on the back of the booklet was addressed to Sen-Sgt John McCarthy, of the firearms registry, and Sen-Constable Webb. The unsigned note read, in part: "Your present is coming up soon".



Witnesses have said police visited the Manna home many times, but police told the inquiry yesterday records showed only three official visits. Mr Manna's former psychiatrist Dr Nathan Serry said Mr Manna told him of increasingly disturbing thoughts of the end of the world. He said he stopped seeing Mr Manna in 1991 and said: "although Mr Manna was stable he was clearly not entirely well". But Dr Anthony Sheenan, a psychiatrist who treated Mr Manna, described him as polite.



The inquest, before Coroner Ms Jacinta Heffey, also heard that Mr Manna planned to move to a Ballarat property on July 9 last year and live in a caravan with an 18-year-old girl he claimed to be his daughter from another marriage and her child. Longtime friend Edmond Akkary said Mr Manna told him he had been thrown out of home by his wife and was living out of his car at Elwood Beach. The hearing was to continue today.



Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited
Herald Sun



June 8, 1995 Thursday


LENGTH: 610 words

HEADLINE: DEATH FIRE RAMBO SLIPPED THROUGH NET

BYLINE: QUIGLEY A

BODY:
A MAN who set fire to his wife and children before killing himself had "slipped through the net", a coroner said yesterday.



Coroner Jacinta Heffey said the horrendous fire that claimed the family of five could not have been prevented by police, close relatives or neighbors. Gennaro (Gino) Manna, 38, his wife Nilla, 33, and their three children Ida, 10, Chiarina, 7, and John-Carmine, 5, were found dead after fire engulfed their Boronia home on July 9 last year. Ms Heffey found Mr Manna responsible for lighting the fire after shooting Chiarina in the side of the neck and dousing her and his other children and wife in petrol. The court heard Chiarina had been Mr Manna's favorite child and he probably shot her to save her the agony of the fire.



Mr Manna, who suffered from schizophrenia and had stopped taking his medication leading up to the fire, was described in court as a "Rambo type" who often wore jungle style army greens and changed his name to Shaka.



The inquest heard Mr Manna began writing comments on walls of the house before the blaze. He wrote: "Which farmer would separate young chicks from the mother hens? It would leave a lot of sadness behind don't you think?" So separation, sadness and pain should never be caused." Mrs Manna apparently responded by writing on a cabinet door: "Gennaro who continually leaves his wife and children alone. Does he make sense or what? I will no longer let loneliness kill me and my kids."



Video tapes such as The Occult History of the Third Reich, The Secret Life of Adolf Hitler and Shaka Zulu were found in the house along with the book Armageddon, Invasion from Outer Space. Ms Heffey said she believed Mr Manna poured petrol on himself before lighting the fire but was unsure whether Mrs Manna was dead or alive when the fire started. She was also found to have a fractured skull.



She said Mr Manna, who had no criminal history, had been admitted three times to the psychiatric ward of Maroondah Hospital between 1989 and 1990. "I do not consider that any person associated with the family could have anticipated the outcome that occurred nor arranged matters in such a way to prevent it," Ms Heffey said." It is tempting to conclude when confronted with the horrendous events that occurred on July 9, 1994, that in some way the community must have failed the Manna family." Gennaro Manna slipped through the net in a way that could not have been prevented."



Mr Manna's brother, Joseph, yesterday told the inquest he blamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, known as Mormons, for his brother's psychotic behavior. But Ms Heffey said she did not believe the church was to blame.



WRITING WAS ON THE WALL



THIS writing in blue texta ink was found on the cabinet door, shelf and door jamb in the laundry. Writing experts have found parts of it to be written by both Gennaro and his wife Nilla. By Gino Manna: "Happiness is Togetherness.” Believed to be written by Nilla Manna: “Says Gennaro who continually leaves his wife and children alone. Does he make sense or what. I will no longer let loneliness kill me and my kids. I am going after my destiny.” By Gino Manna: "Which farmer would separate young chicks from the mother hens. It would leave a lot of sadness behind don't you think so? So separation, sadness and pain should never be caused." “It's like saying some shall be standing and some shall not feel the sting of death. Everybody likes the good stuff but nobody likes a wise guy. Words from a wise old man.”



The following was written elsewhere in the laundry: “Read Patriacal B Read Patriacal B. Let the loved ones R.I.P. R.I.P. As the Jews do. See for yourself. At their grave yards."





Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited
Herald Sun



June 10, 1995 Saturday


LENGTH: 287 words

HEADLINE: FIRST WIFE FELT LIKE A PRISONER

BYLINE: HARDING A

BODY:
THE first wife of psychotic killer Gino Manna has told of her escape from her terrifying marriage after only seven weeks.



Rosa Bascetta, who was married to Manna in 1976, said she felt like a prisoner in her own home during their short time together. "I think those months were the most traumatic of my life," she said." The minute he would leave the house, the minute he was out the door, it was like I could breathe again."



Mrs Bascetta said Manna, who was at first charming but quickly turned into a possessive monster, had been obsessed with fire. "He threatened my parents that he would burn their house down while they were sleeping," she said.



Mrs Bascetta said this week she was shocked - but not surprised - to learn that her ex-husband had murdered his second wife and three young children." He would have been capable of it, there's no doubt about that," she said. "He was terrifying."



Mrs Bascetta met Manna when she was 19. Her family initially encouraged the relationship and they were married after four months. But Mrs Bascetta, who is now happily married, said he became violent soon after they wed. Manna, jealous and possessive, sometimes followed her to work and did not let her visit male doctors. "It was like I was a prisoner. I couldn't have any friends." she said. “Anything could trigger him off, like he was a split personality." Mrs Bascetta and Manna were living with her parents when she finally ordered him out of the house. “I knew that because I was living here with my parents he couldn't set foot in here," she said. Mrs Bascetta suspects Manna's second wife, Nilla, once tried to phone her." I wish I had been home that day, maybe I would have been able to help."



Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited
Herald Sun



June 10, 1995 Saturday


LENGTH: 1380 words

HEADLINE: FROM RELIGION TO RAMBO

BYLINE: HARDING A

BODY:
NILLA Salerno was charmed by the attentions of Gino Manna. She was an impressionable 18-year-old in her final year of high school when they met at an Italian community dance in 1977. Gino, 21, saw her across the dance floor and was smitten. After the dance he came around with a carnation for Nilla, whom he described to his future father-in-law Luigi as "very beautiful and like the Madonna".



But the course of true love never did run smooth. Luigi and his wife Chiara were unhappy to discover that young Gino had already been married. They did not want their daughter to marry a divorced man. Shortly before her fiery death last year, Nilla told a friend that her father had pleaded with her not to marry Gino. "Her father got down on his knees and begged her not to marry him," friend Theoni Snow recalled. But Nilla and Gino were wed - and the seeds that led to their destruction were sown.



On July 9 last year Gino shot his favorite child, Chiarina, before dousing her, his two other children, and his wife, with petrol. A forensic scientist told this week's inquest that the fire had been well-planned and would have taken time to set up. Whoever did it wanted it to go up in an inferno, the scientist said.



Coroner Jacinta Heffey was satisfied after three days of evidence that Gino, a schizophrenic who had changed his name to Shaka - after the Zulu chief - was the perpetrator. While Ida, 10, John-Carmine, 5, Nilla, 34, and Gino, 38, died from fire exposure, seven-year-old Chiarina had suffered a bullet wound to the neck. Sen-Det. Mark Patrick, of the arson squad, said Chiarina was Gino's favorite child and, it seemed, he wanted "a quick, sharp death for her" instead of the agony of incineration.



Genarro (Gino) Manna was born in Naples and emigrated to Australia with his family in 1966, aged 10. He left school at 15 and spent time doing various jobs, mainly laboring, before meeting his first wife, Rosa, who left him after only seven weeks. Soon after the breakdown, he met Nilla, and despite the opposition from her parents, they married in 1979. After the wedding, Nilla's mother began to think that perhaps Gino was not too bad - despite his previous marriage. "I began to like Gino after he started saying that he would give Nilla everything she wanted," Mrs Chiara Salerno told police. "I thought she might have found someone that would take care of her - but I later found out that I was tricked." “I found Gino to be very jealous, and his caring, kindly attitude changed rapidly."



THEY separated after Nilla's 21st birthday, but later reconciled, and in February 1984, Ida was born. Chiarina arrived three years later and John-Carmine nearly two years after that. But by 1987 Gino's mental illness began to manifest itself. He became obsessed with thoughts of Armageddon and began to fear for the family's safety.



In 1988 he drove them to Wagga Wagga, fearing the end was nigh. His concerned brothers pursued them and had to force him to hospital for treatment. During a struggle Gino stabbed his brother Joseph. From then, Gino began receiving regular psychiatric treatment. He managed to appear rational and compliant to his treating doctors - but to others he was a "Rambo" who would stalk the streets in army greens and threaten neighbors. Gino, who had always been religious, and his family joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) in 1990 and Gino became very involved in church activities. Church members who became friendly with Nilla told the coroner this week of her sad life. "Gino ruled his family in a cruel and patriarchal manner," Mr Jeffrey Tempany, the then bishop of the Knox ward, said.



Teachers at Yawarra Primary School recalled the Manna children as quiet kids who played mainly with each other.They did not go on school excursions and never had any money. Mr Tempany described them as sad children who never smiled. They appeared haunted, he said. The youngest, John-Carmine, was perhaps the most vocal about their home life. He often said he hated his father and wished he did not live with them. Their grandmother, Mrs Salerno, told police she used to pay for a taxi to collect Nilla and the children so they could visit. "I found the children were happy with me and they used to cry when they left - they didn't want to leave my house because they felt safe," she said.



A friend of Nilla told the inquest that Gino would have been happy to have the family "incarcerated in that home" - a home that was secured like a fortress, with metal shutters on the windows, steel bars throughout and high fences. Nine debarked Doberman dogs were in the back yard - Gino, who was fond of dogs, had embarked on a cross-breeding program between dobermans and chihuahas.



The Mormons excommunicated Gino in 1993 after deciding he was "guilty of conduct unbecoming a member of the church". But the church denied allegations that they had cut him off, sparking his anger and leading to the family's demise. Joseph Manna, one of Gino's six siblings, said that before his involvement with the church, they had been able to "get through" to Gino if they tried hard. Mr Manna said both Gino and Nilla had been vulnerable - and the church exploited their needs. "I believe that they were seriously brainwashed to the point they shut the doors on myself and my family," he said. After the fire, Mr Manna found "amazing" literature in the house about the end of the world and how they should prepare.



Gino stored large amounts of food and water in the house - the church said this was to prepare for times of hardship, but others feel it was to prepare for the end. "In the opinion of myself and my family, they (the church) had a great deal to do with their deaths," Mr Manna said. But Mr Tempany believes the church did all it could to help the Manna family. The coroner found the church had acted properly in excommunicating Gino, but still welcoming him into the services.



Nilla's mother told police she offered in 1991 to buy a house for her and the children."(But) Nilla said that she could not divorce or separate from him and move near me because she was afraid that Gino would kill me and the family," she said. Friend Margaret Walker said Nilla had a secret telephone so she could make calls without Gino's knowledge. Police were called to the house in late 1993 after a neighbor reported a child screaming. They found biblical scriptures written on the walls, and took steps to cancel Gino's gun licence. But Gino told them some of his firearms had been stolen and despite a thorough search, police could not find them. Sen-Constable Simon Webb, of Knox police, told the inquest he had no doubt Gino still had the weapons. Nilla obtained an interim intervention order against Gino about this time - though he remained in the house - but soon cancelled it for unknown reasons.



However, in the weeks leading up to the tragedy, it seemed that Nilla's courage to leave was building. She had been making secret visits to rental properties with a close friend from the church. "She was gaining freedom that she had never experienced before in their marriage," Mrs Walker said. Gino had apparently made plans to move to the Ballarat property of an old friend on the Saturday of the fire. He had visited the property with a mystery woman - an 18-year-old he claimed was his daughter from an old girlfriend - and her young baby. But he never arrived at the property - instead he perished in the Dixon Court house with his family.



What happened in the early hours of July 9 will never be known. Sen-Det. Patrick believes Gino began his rampage by firing his shotgun through the laundry window. Fire scene examiners found the body of 10-year-old Ida stretched over those of Chiarina and John-Carmine on collapsed bunks. Gino poured fuel over his children and his wife, who was found in the hall, then lit the fire. He might have also poured fuel on himself - or he might have been splashed by Nilla. But Nilla could have been dead even before the fire began - she had a fractured skull which might have occurred before the blaze.



Coroner Jacinta Heffey said that it was tempting, given the horrendous event, to find the community had failed the Manna family. But she could not. "Gennaro Manna slipped through the net in a way that could not have been prevented," she said.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

EAllusion wrote:He said he does not agree with Beastie saying Pahoran was as offensive as Kevin. There's nothing wrong with pointing out what Pahoran does to point out the nature of DCP's offense calculus.

As long as you understand that the data on offer leave the precise nature of my "offense calculus" considerably underdetermined.

Thus far, nobody's come close to grasping my reasons for deciding to avoid encounters with Kevin Graham. And, since I don't intend to talk about them -- doing so would certainly draw Kevin Graham into a conversation in which I would have no intention of participating, which would, thus, leave me at a considerable disadvantage -- "underdetermined" is very likely the way things will remain on this topic.
_EAllusion
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _EAllusion »

Here you go Beastie:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/6421?page=3

On the plus side, Pahoran was totally cool with DCP when they hung out. So there's that.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
EAllusion wrote:He said he does not agree with Beastie saying Pahoran was as offensive as Kevin. There's nothing wrong with pointing out what Pahoran does to point out the nature of DCP's offense calculus.

As long as you understand that the data on offer leave the precise nature of my "offense calculus" considerably underdetermined.

Thus far, nobody's come close to grasping my reasons for deciding to avoid encounters with Kevin Graham. And, since I don't intend to talk about them -- doing so would certainly draw Kevin Graham into a conversation in which I would have no intention of participating, which would, thus, leave me at a considerable disadvantage -- "underdetermined" is very likely the way things will remain on this topic.



Does anybody else find this fascinating? I mean, honestly: Why would DCP be afraid of Kevin Graham? Is he afraid of being outmatched in a discussion on Islam? Since he has mentioned R. Spencer, I don't think that's it. So, what is it then?

I think it is worth pointing out that this is a very specific tactic DCP uses when he finds himself up against certain formidable critics. I'm sure people here will remember "Ritnergate" when Prof. P. and John Gee were making all these insinuations, e.g., "Ritner did something to Gee that was uncalled for, but we're not going to talk about it, etc." Obviously, Ritner's resignation from Gee's doctoral committee punched some major holes in Book of Abraham apologetics credibility. So, DCP and Gee used this (admittedly clever) tactic of not ever saying what their beef was, but letting people think there is something really rotten underlying everything.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mister Scratch wrote:Does anybody else find this fascinating?

There might be others here who find it mildly interesting, but I suspect that, in terms of sheer obsessive fascination, you're in a league entirely of your own.

Mister Scratch wrote:I mean, honestly: Why would DCP be afraid of Kevin Graham?

"Afraid"?

Typical Scartch.

Mister Scratch wrote:Obviously, Ritner's resignation from Gee's doctoral committee punched some major holes in Book of Abraham apologetics credibility.

There is an assumption in that sentence that, from what I know of the case, is flatly false. However -- and I'll admit that fear does play a role here -- since there was some talk of a lawsuit a while back, I don't intend to be more specific than that. The prospect, however remote, of having to fork over enormous sums of money to pay legal bills (even if the truth prevailed) or, in the worst-case scenario, losing everything my family and I own, tends to dampen my enthusiasm for invasive Scartchoscopies.

Mister Scratch wrote:So, DCP and Gee used this (admittedly clever) tactic of not ever saying what their beef was, but letting people think there is something really rotten underlying everything.

I've said, simply, that I choose not to interact with Kevin Graham. I'm happy to leave it there. I'm not surprised, though, that you would love to hear more. After all, there are those creepy "dossiers" to fill.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Obviously, Ritner's resignation from Gee's doctoral committee punched some major holes in Book of Abraham apologetics credibility.

There is an assumption in that sentence that, from what I know of the case, is flatly false.


And the assumption is what? That the resignation reflected badly on the case for the Book of Abraham? Or that Ritner resigned?

Of course, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier. It plays to your advantage to leave enough room for people to believe that Prof. Ritner was somehow in the wrong. I would think that, for the sake of Book of Abraham apologetics, that you'd want to clear the air.



Mister Scratch wrote:So, DCP and Gee used this (admittedly clever) tactic of not ever saying what their beef was, but letting people think there is something really rotten underlying everything.

I've said, simply, that I choose not to interact with Kevin Graham.


This is something of a non sequitur, since I was referring to "Ritnergate." That said, I'm sure there is an actual reason why you "choose not to interact with Kevin."

I'm happy to leave it there.


No doubt you are, since it makes it easy for your supporters to assume the worst.
_beastie
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Re: Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

Post by _beastie »

Here you go Beastie:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/6421?page=3

On the plus side, Pahoran was totally cool with DCP when they hung out. So there's that.


Yer a genius!! Did you use google or Z's search engine, which has a long history of suckage?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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